19:52 <@Sledge> POINT ONE 19:52 < stockholm> i would support sleges moderation 19:52 < Sledge> priorities 19:52 < Sledge> one at a time, PLEASE 19:52 < stockholm> (what about those in the checklist, that we agreed on?) 19:52 < Sledge> what precisely are the priorities that we should be using in deciding? 19:52 < Sledge> stockholm: good point 19:52 < vedran_sjj> I basically agree with bdales priority list 19:53 * h01ger really thinks about following his proposal about +m and voice for the team and local leaders.. 19:53 < Sledge> has everybody ready bdale's list? 19:53 < Maulkin> ** minutes Sledge asks for priorities that we should be using in deciding the location for debconf. 19:53 < slef> Where's bdale's list? 19:53 < Sledge> h01ger: please go ahead and do that 19:53 < Maulkin> slef: On the -team mailing list 19:53 < slef> h01ger-- 19:53 * h01ger explains to the others that Maulkin just toke a note for the minutes 19:53 < marga> http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060705.181923.927c1bfa.en.html 19:53 * GyrosGeier opens #debconf-team-discuss 19:54 * h01ger is happy about GyrosGeier and does as planned 19:54 < Jon_uk> marga: thanks 19:54 < marga> I think Bdale's priorities are quite alright. 19:54 <@Sledge> any objections to any of those items? 19:55 <+moray> I haven't thought deeply about the ordering, but I felt I agreed with bdale's list when I read it 19:55 <@Sledge> anythings that should be added? 19:55 <+stockholm> the priorities are in a differnet form at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckListhttp://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList 19:55 <+stockholm> sorry, bad paste 19:55 * h01ger wonders who else 19:55 <+stockholm> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList 19:56 <+stockholm> font size indicates the importance 19:56 <+marga> I think it lacks something about accessibility, but the rest really seems to reflect my thoughts... Although I'd probably go with a different order. 19:56 <@h01ger> vedran_sjj asked me to give him voice in case sapphire_sjj has connectifity probs 19:56 <+marga> there's nothing about orga on that list, whereas it seems the problems debconf has worst today are orga 19:56 <+bdale> h01ger: Sledge should have voice? 19:57 <@h01ger> sorry Sledge, i thought i gave it to you first 19:57 <+Sledge> h01ger: fine 19:57 <+Sledge> marga: do you mean central orga, or local orga? 19:57 <+marga> It was slef, but I think he means local. 19:57 <+bdale> marga: when I wrote that email, I was trying to "stay above" what I knew of the issues in the orga team, and I certainly don't know all of the issues in the team regardless 19:57 * h01ger didnt see Tolimar coming back 19:58 <+Sledge> marga: ah, ok 19:58 <+Sledge> ok, that's a fair enough addition 19:58 <+marga> So, having a strong, mature, experienced local team is a priority. An important one. 19:58 <+bdale> I easily agree with that 19:58 <+Sledge> ok, where does it fit in the list? 19:59 <+bdale> I'd place it after affordable and the trappings of a good working environment, but ahead of almost everything else 19:59 <+Sledge> that matches my own idea; anybody else? 19:59 <@gwolf> Ok, so we go back to the beginning :-/ Sorry, I cannot skip the point that I'm angry - we are going over the same points over and over! 19:59 * Maulkin agrees 19:59 <@Ganneff> yes. its useless 19:59 <@gwolf> Ordering again the priorities is useless. 20:00 <+Maulkin> (with bdale's point) 20:00 <@gwolf> We have went over them a hundred times. 20:00 <@Ganneff> thats what you get when you let those people run it. 20:00 <+marga> Ok. Priorities done. 20:00 <+marga> Let's move on. 20:00 <+stockholm> Ganneff: dont do this, it does not help currently 20:00 <+Sledge> ok, it seems we're happy enough with the ordering 20:01 <+Sledge> which makes the priorities: 20:01 <@h01ger> the meeting ordering ? 20:01 <+Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees 20:01 <+Sledge> good working spaces 20:01 <+Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team 20:01 <+Sledge> excellant network connectivity 20:01 <+Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity 20:01 <+Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity 20:01 <+Sledge> presentation facilities 20:01 <+Sledge> travel logistics 20:01 <+Sledge> does that work for people? 20:01 <+stockholm> i would move up the local team, actuallz. 20:02 <+Sledge> stockholm: to which position? 20:02 <+marga> accesibility is soft of missing, although it's more like a general thing. 20:02 <+bdale> stockholm: still after affordable, or before? 20:02 <+stockholm> 2nd 20:02 * h01ger thinks the whole debconf-orga-lead topic should be moved up. or at least be present. maybe its good to have it in the end, or maybe not 20:02 <+Maulkin> marga: I think that can be derived from the otehr items :) 20:02 <+bdale> marga: at least in my part of the world, it is mostly taken as a given part of the context. but I am certainly perfectly ok with it being an explicit priority. 20:03 * h01ger thinks bith venues are sufficiently accessible. Ganneff, otavio (is not here..) ? 20:03 <@gwolf> bdale: This time we failed in that regard because it was not such a given :) 20:03 <+Sledge> ok, let's add accessibility to make it clear 20:03 <+bdale> marga: however, in practical terms, it doesn't look like accessibility is a significant differentiator between the two proposals for dc7 20:04 <+bdale> gwolf: good point 20:04 <@Ganneff> h01ger: SJJ has advantages 20:04 <+marga> bdale: no, I know. 20:04 <@Ganneff> h01ger: but EDI also, depends where you look 20:04 <@Ganneff> both are good 20:04 <+Sledge> accessibility priority level? 20:04 <@h01ger> Ganneff, ok. but do we need this as a topic? 20:04 <@gwolf> they are quite leveled, so.. :) 20:04 <@Ganneff> no. 20:04 <@Ganneff> both are fine vor debconf. 20:04 <@h01ger> good 20:04 <+stockholm> i would give it level 7 or so 20:04 <+stockholm> but in this caes it does not matter 20:05 <+bdale> Sledge: it seems like the important thing is for it to be on the list so it isn't forgotten, not so much where it is on the list 20:05 <+Sledge> ok, let's just add it to the list 20:05 <@h01ger> is this thetopic list or the priorities? 20:05 <+Maulkin> Does this need quickly wiki-ing? 20:05 <@h01ger> Maulkin, please do create a topic wiki page 20:05 <+Maulkin> kk 20:05 <+bdale> h01ger: the priorities. I think the /topic is fine 20:05 <+Sledge> list by my reckoning is now: 20:06 <+Sledge> "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees 20:06 <+Sledge> strong, mature, experienced local team 20:06 <+Sledge> good working spaces 20:06 <+Sledge> excellant network connectivity 20:06 <+Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity 20:06 <+Sledge> suitabile housing in close proximity 20:06 <+Sledge> presentation facilities 20:06 <+Sledge> travel logistics 20:06 <+Sledge> accessibility 20:06 <+Sledge> anything more/less? 20:06 <@h01ger> bdale, the topics of this meeting i ment. not the /topic :) 20:06 <@h01ger> so this is priorities? 20:06 <+stockholm> what about continuity? 20:06 <+stockholm> i think it is important for a complex thing like debconf 20:07 <+Sledge> stockholm: is that actually a separate priority, or just part of the background organisation? 20:07 <+Tolimar> stockholm: what do you mean by "continuity"? (I know what the word means, but in this context of venue decission I don't understand what you mean.) 20:07 <+stockholm> Sledge: i think it should be considered 20:08 <+stockholm> Tolimar: if you change too many factors at once in a conplex system you certainly have a uncontroled state. 20:08 <+marga> stockholm: I think we are stating the priorities about choosing a location, not about what the team has to do better. 20:08 <+Tolimar> stockholm: Ah, okay. Thanks. 20:08 <+stockholm> Tolimar: continuity means that it location is not radically different to everthing before, which invalidates what we know how a debconf works 20:08 <+Maulkin> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList 20:09 <+aj> (so, apparently it took me 1h30 to realise that alarm meant "wake up"... 4:30am meetings are teh suck) 20:09 <+bdale> stockholm: hrm. we've had some pretty large differences in the venues to date, though, haven't we? 20:09 * h01ger waves to aj - good morning :) 20:09 <+bdale> aj: caffeine is good 20:10 <+Maulkin> ** minutes a list of priorites exists at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList 20:10 <@h01ger> aj, we have a list of priorities for choosing the venue, but no real agenda for this meeting. 20:10 <+moray> can we pause a couple of minutes for aj to read scrollback and chime in? 20:10 <+stockholm> bdale: actually they were similar to some degree. 20:10 <@gwolf> aj: All my respect for coming out of bed that early :) 20:10 * h01ger says yes to moray 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <+bdale> stockholm: true enough 20:10 <+Maulkin> ** minutes - general - both venues seem approx equal in accessability fronts, it: both acceptable. 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well 20:10 <@h01ger> nuff said? 20:10 <+marga> Pause, but could we please be told what's going to follow, please? 20:11 <@h01ger> or do i need to take voices away? :) 20:11 <@h01ger> marga, discussing the agenda of this meeting?! 20:15 <+stockholm> will aj beep once he is done? 20:15 <@h01ger> 19:20 is bit enough? 20:15 <@h01ger> beep even 20:16 <+aj> beep? 20:16 <+stockholm> visual bell. 20:16 <+aj> xxx ? 20:16 <+moray> aj: do you have anything to say about your intentions for this meeting, etc., before it re-starts? 20:16 <+marga> So, the next step is compare the venues according to the priority list? 20:16 <@h01ger> .oO( oh well... me thinks other people might be afk, but... it started already ) 20:17 * h01ger is ok with it 20:17 <+marga> h01ger: I'm just asking. 20:17 <@h01ger> marga, np 20:17 <@h01ger> aj, please let us come up with an agenda first 20:17 <+aj> okay, so we still have UK and SJJ people around right? 20:17 <+Maulkin> aj: Yes 20:17 <+sapphire_sjj> yes 20:17 <+aj> i see moray (but no moray_uk...) 20:17 <+vedran_sjj> yes 20:18 <@h01ger> aj, so two topics like in your mail or what? 20:19 <+aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were? 20:19 <+bdale> oops, f'ing mouse 20:19 <+Maulkin> :) 20:19 <+Sledge> bdale: doh! :-) 20:20 <+vedran_sjj> ok should I go? 20:20 <@h01ger> aj, agenda first. otherwise... its stupid 20:20 * h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda 20:20 * h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda 20:20 <+aj> moray, sapphire_sjj: are you happy to do that in a few minutes? 20:21 <+sapphire_sjj> aj, vedran_sjj will be our speaker 20:21 <+stockholm> will there be a "native speaker" bonus? 20:21 <+Sledge> sapphire_sjj: ok, cool 20:21 <@h01ger> aj, if you take over, please say so, dont just do it :( 20:21 * h01ger shuts up 20:21 <+aj> sapphire_sjj: oh, okay, thanks 20:22 <+aj> vedran_sjj, moray: are you happy to do that in a few minutes? 20:22 <+Maulkin> ** minutes <+aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were? 20:22 <+Maulkin> ** minutes vedran_sjj and moray representing 20:22 <+stockholm> why is this better then comparing according priorities? 20:22 <+marga> I think it might be interesting, but are we doing the comparison against priorities or not? 20:23 <@gwolf> because it takes longer and gets us back to the same points again? 20:24 <+aj> sigh 20:24 <+bdale> if the two teams are willing and are honest about it, we could learn something about each proposal 20:24 <+stockholm> aj: i believe there might be good reasons. i just dont see them yet 20:24 * h01ger wanted to suggest stockholm and gwolf to follow the agenda. so i think i will tell aj again to first discuss the agenda of this meeting and the procedure :) (so we then can make offtopic people quiet ;) 20:25 <+stockholm> aj: if you tell us how you imagine how this can work out well this way we might see the advantage 20:25 <+aj> sorry, i need to know if moray/someone from EDI's willing to do the above 20:25 <+moray> aj: yes, I was waiting for the interruption to be over 20:26 <+aj> thanks 20:26 <+stockholm> who is chair now? 20:26 * Sledge will continue on 20:26 <+stockholm> thanks 20:26 <+Sledge> agenda item 3 - teams compare their bids 20:27 * h01ger thinks we either go with the agenda from ajs mail or the one we started here while he was asleep. chairs please go. i dont chair anymore 20:27 <+Sledge> point out strengths of the opposing bid, and weaknesses in their own 20:27 <+Sledge> s/item 2/item 3/, sorry 20:27 <+Sledge> s/item 3/item 2/, sorry 20:27 * Sledge screams at his poor faiing fingers 20:27 <+aj> f4f18f855ac7240b5e4ebb7c5771e8e74f563682; Sledge: heads or tails? 20:28 <+stockholm> (c: 20:28 <+Sledge> heads 20:28 <+aj> echo 'heads = sarajevo goes first' | sha1sum 20:29 <+Sledge> later items: 20:29 <+Sledge> _limited_ questions for the 2 teams 20:29 <+Sledge> (item 3) 20:29 <+vedran_sjj> ok I'd like to do EDI's strengths and SJJ weakness at the same time 20:30 <+vedran_sjj> is it ok? 20:30 <+aj> sounds fair; moray? 20:30 <+moray> I'm not sure what the question is precisely, but seems fine 20:30 <+Sledge> item 4: weigh up bids against priorities 20:30 <+Sledge> item 5: ***decision*** 20:30 <+Sledge> people happy with that agenda? 20:31 <@Ganneff> ... 20:31 <+sapphire_sjj> yes\ 20:31 <+aj> vedran_sjj: okay, 5m on strengths; 5m on weaknesses once sledge says okay; then same for edi team (in reverse), then we'll move on to clarifications from everyone 20:31 <@h01ger> Sledge, aj: thats it? no orga-team topic? 20:31 * Maulkin suggests 4a: comments from orga-team 20:31 <@h01ger> (sorry for reacting so late) 20:31 <+Maulkin> Fairly stongly. 20:31 <+aj> vedran_sjj: the aim at this point is for you guys to demonstrate you know what you're talking about and are able to analyse your own problems as well as just advocate for your bid 20:31 <+Maulkin> *strongly 20:31 <+Sledge> Maulkin: yup, add that 20:32 <+Maulkin> This need wiki-ing? 20:32 <+Sledge> please 20:32 <+Sledge> anything else for agenda? 20:32 <+aj> clarifications from everyone includes from the orga team 20:32 <@h01ger> Sledge, yes. see above. orgateam/delegates 20:32 <@h01ger> this somewhat is crashed atm 20:32 <@h01ger> this=team 20:32 * h01ger is sorry to be honest. no, i'm not :) 20:33 <+Sledge> others: do we want to discuss orga-team in this meeting? 20:33 <+stockholm> h01ger: i dont follow? 20:33 <+stockholm> h01ger: can you explain? 20:33 <@gwolf> stockholm: We are in a crisis moment for the team 20:33 <@h01ger> stockholm, see gwolf. 20:33 <@gwolf> And that's something quite objective :) 20:33 <+stockholm> ah 20:33 <+marga> Please, guys, this is off-topic right now. vedran_sjj I hope you are preparing your statement. 20:34 <+vedran_sjj> yes i'm ready 20:34 <@h01ger> marga, no. Tolimar has left :( you just want to continue?? 20:34 <+Sledge> h01ger: sorry, unless somebody else agrees with you we'll leave that discussion until later 20:34 <+marga> h01ger: not really, but I don't want to discuss this right now. 20:34 <@h01ger> (to give one example why i think this is important as well. happily after the venue decision...) 20:34 <+Sledge> h01ger: ok, cool 20:34 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: ready to go? 20:34 <+marga> vedran_sjj: ok, please go ahead? 20:35 <@h01ger> Sledge, but put it on the agenda! 20:35 <+Maulkin> Agenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings 20:35 <+vedran_sjj> ok 20:35 <+Sledge> h01ger: ok, 6: orga team discussion 20:35 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: 5 minutes 20:35 <+vedran_sjj> 1. SJJ has no budget flights... while EDI has a lot of budget flights 20:35 <+vedran_sjj> obviously this presents a problem for non-sponsored atendees 20:36 <+vedran_sjj> making it more expensive and complicated to visit SJJ 20:36 * h01ger missed the topic orgateam in the agenda and just added it 20:36 <+vedran_sjj> (as I said earlier, I'm doing strengths/weaknesses at the same time) 20:36 <+vedran_sjj> (cause I don't want to just repeat the same stuff...) 20:37 <+vedran_sjj> we spent a lot of energy finding a solution to this problem 20:37 <+vedran_sjj> we can make it smaller, but now dissapear completely 20:37 <+aj> just problems, we don't need solutions too :) 20:37 <+vedran_sjj> I say non-sponsored, because sponsorship is in the spreadsheet 20:38 <+vedran_sjj> 2. EDI has a well-known debian community 20:38 <+vedran_sjj> they have several DDs on their team 20:38 <+vedran_sjj> while our team is a strong general Linux community but less involved with Debian 20:39 <+vedran_sjj> though I see this as an opportunity to convert this community to Debian :) 20:39 <+vedran_sjj> some may disagree... 20:39 <+vedran_sjj> 3. SJJ might be less interesting to corporate sponsorship 20:39 <+aj> (converting the community to debian would be a strength of the bid, don't cheat :) 20:40 <+vedran_sjj> ok sorry 20:40 <+vedran_sjj> we had that problem (no 3) when talking about another prospective FOSS conference 20:40 <+aj> (half time) 20:40 <+vedran_sjj> 4. and I'd like to add (some from my team disagree strongly...) the cultural issues 20:41 <+Sledge> ok 20:41 <+Sledge> by my account that's 5 minutes 20:41 <+vedran_sjj> I understand some DC attendees might have issues with SJJ 20:41 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: please finish 4. 20:41 <+Sledge> then we move on 20:41 <+vedran_sjj> -- as I said I'm doing both at the same time 20:41 <+aj> (5m for weaknesses SJJ, 5m for strengths EDI = 10m all up) 20:41 <+vedran_sjj> can't we join the two half-times? 20:41 <+Sledge> crap, sorry 20:41 * Sledge hits himself 20:41 <+vedran_sjj> as I would basically be repeating myself 20:42 <+aj> which cultural issues do you see still being a problem for sjj potentially? 20:42 <+vedran_sjj> point 4: 20:42 <+vedran_sjj> this is really very subjective 20:42 <+vedran_sjj> we tried to remove such issues (even have a wiki on that) 20:42 <+vedran_sjj> but I think some people will just never change their opinion no matter what we do 20:43 <+vedran_sjj> the issue is prejudice and not the actual state 20:43 <+vedran_sjj> of things 20:43 <+aj> okay, next one? 20:43 <+vedran_sjj> to repeat EDIs strenghts: EDI airport, more attractive to sponsors etc. 20:44 <+vedran_sjj> well thats it, we'll be open for questions if needed 20:44 <+aj> okay 20:44 <+Sledge> swap to EDI? 20:44 <+vedran_sjj> you can swap, I'm finished 20:44 <+aj> since there's a minute left; would you go to EDI if they had dc7 and you could? 20:44 <+vedran_sjj> yes why not 20:45 <+vedran_sjj> i would go 20:45 <+vedran_sjj> nothing else :) 20:45 <+bdale> aj: am I correct that you'd like us to hold comments until after EDI's turn? 20:45 <+Maulkin> ** minutes see above for sjj positives/negatives bit. 20:45 <+Sledge> bdale: correct 20:45 <+Sledge> let's move on to EDI 20:45 <+aj> bdale: yes; we'll let both teams bullet point any additional strengths they think they have then 20:45 <+Sledge> moray: are you ready? 20:45 * bdale agrees 20:46 <+moray> Sledge: you want me to start on Sarajevo strengths? 20:46 <+Sledge> yes please 20:46 <+aj> weaknesses for edi, strengths for sjj; either order 20:46 <+Sledge> moray: 10 mins, go! 20:46 <+moray> I think the main advantage for Sarajevo over Edinburgh is that it's a cheaper city for food/accommodation 20:47 <+moray> i.e. either of the same quality is definitely cheaper in Sarajevo than Edinburgh 20:48 <+moray> (2) The Bosnians hope that they'll create some more interest in free software by having the conference there 20:48 <+moray> (3) It's probably a more 'exotic' location (a lot of people seem to find the UK a boring idea ;) 20:49 <+moray> (4) I know that a lot of people prefer the 'self-contained' venue they're proposing 20:49 <+moray> ok, can I go on our weaknesses? 20:49 <+aj> go ahead 20:49 <+moray> right 20:49 <+moray> weaknesses: 20:49 <+moray> (1) We're competing with a lot of other events in Edinburgh to get venues/accommodation, especially since we're proposing a venue right in the middle of the city 20:50 <+moray> The obviously drives up prices for facilities, and it also means things need to be booked early 20:51 <+moray> (3) Edinburgh is a more expensive city than Sarajevo, though this is mitigated because we'd be right in the centre (zero travel costs once you're there), and all the city-run tourist things are free 20:51 <+aj> (2) ? 20:51 <+moray> aj: er, the one without a number was 2 in my mind ;) 20:51 <+aj> ah 20:52 <+moray> Weather - when I visited Sarajevo, it was consistently bright and mid-30s 20:52 <+moray> while I've already explained that Edinburgh isn't wet compared to Glasgow, people *are* likely to see some rain while they're here ;) 20:52 <+moray> I think that's me done 20:52 <+aj> (i think we can assume we're not holding dc in glasgow :) 20:53 <+Maulkin> ** minutes - see above for Edi strengths and weaknesses 20:53 <+Sledge> moray: nothing further to add? 20:53 <+aj> vedran_sjj: ok, moray had a chance to think while you were talking, did you think of anything you wanted to add while moray was? 20:53 <+moray> oh, one more, someone implies people may be worried about kilts or haggis or bagpipes ;) 20:54 <+vedran_sjj> nothing more from sjj 20:54 <+bdale> moray: they're only worried that I'll be in a tie-dyed kilt all week... ;-) 20:54 * Sledge shudders at that image 20:54 <+Sledge> :-) 20:54 <+vedran_sjj> aj: nothing more, we can go on 20:54 <+Maulkin> ** minutes Questions and comments 20:54 <+Maulkin> (I think) 20:55 <+aj> vedran_sjj: okay, cheap food, local interest, exotic locale, self-contained venue; did you have any other strengths for sjj you wanted to remind people of very briefly? 20:55 <+vedran_sjj> ok, public transport in sjj is very cheap 20:55 <+stockholm> comments about the sponsors thing: 20:55 <+aj> stockholm: please wait 20:55 <+vedran_sjj> we have a top quality venue 20:55 <+vedran_sjj> a four star hotel 20:56 <+vedran_sjj> everything under one roof, 24/7 20:56 <+aj> that one's mentioned (self contained venue) 20:56 <+vedran_sjj> I'd like to add 24/7 availability 20:56 <@gwolf> aj: Note the 24/7 thing 20:56 <+aj> right 20:56 <+vedran_sjj> we have an already established Internet link + prospective donors for wireless 20:56 <+vedran_sjj> Internet in rooms 20:56 <+marga> vedran_sjj: that's a promise, not a fact, right? 20:57 <+vedran_sjj> also we have server & video rooms available 20:57 <+aj> marga: questions later 20:57 <+vedran_sjj> marga: thats a fact, we have confirmation from ISP 20:57 <+marga> vedran_sjj: I meant the "Internet in rooms" part. 20:57 <+Sledge> ok, vedran_sjj: done? 20:57 <+vedran_sjj> and one more thing: IMHO we have quite good accessibility support 20:58 * gwolf has to interrupt a second - I'm leaving in under five minutes 20:58 <+vedran_sjj> marga: that also is confirmed 20:58 <@gwolf> I'll leave a couple of comments in the list. Please take them into account when doing the voting. 20:58 <+aj> moray: since i forgot earlier; if dc7 were in sjj, would you be going? 20:58 * gwolf ceases to interrupt 20:58 <+Maulkin> gwolf: Or you can /msg me them and I'll relay 20:58 <@gwolf> Maulkin: So be it. 20:59 <+moray> aj: well, I'd rather answer about the whole team - I'm sure that there will be a good representation from our UK bid team, wherever it is 20:59 <+Sledge> ok, that's fair enough 21:00 <+Maulkin> ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for sjj 21:00 <+aj> moray: any additional strengths of edi you'd like to mentioned, other than cheap fligths, debian community, corporate sponsors? 21:00 <+Sledge> moray: quick summary of EDI bid strengths? 21:00 <+moray> yup ... 21:01 <+moray> the bid team has a lot of experience of past debconfs, as well as other free software events and academic conferences, so I think we have a lot of experience between us to work to organise a good event 21:02 <+moray> we're proposing debconf in a very central location, so we have all the amenities of the city right on our doorstep 21:02 <+moray> the city as a whole is accessible, with e.g. the taxis required to be able to transport wheelchairs, as well as wheelchair accessible buses 21:02 <+moray> the venues are flexible about network rearranging/mess etc. 21:03 <+moray> there's lots of breakout space in the venue as well as outside 21:03 <+moray> Edinburgh's a major network hub, we *might* be able to negotiate 1Gb/s from the venue, but it's certainly easy to get a nice (if slower than that) connection from one of our sponsor ISPs 21:04 <+Sledge> ok; done? 21:04 <+moray> the city is well-connected besides flights, btw, people from Europe can also take trains and ferries if they want to avoid killing the earth so fast 21:04 <+moray> Sledge: yeah, I should stop 21:04 <+Sledge> ok, done 21:04 <+Sledge> let's move on 21:05 <+aj> vedran_sjj: does that summary from moray of edi strengths sound fair? 21:05 <+Maulkin> ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for edi 21:05 <+vedran_sjj> I'd like to add that we have some of the same things 21:05 * gwolf waves goodbye. Maulkin has my final comments. I'll stay logged in to get the backlog later. 21:05 <+Sledge> ttfn gwolf 21:06 <+vedran_sjj> breakout space, network flexibility, we also have a minibus for transportation of disabled persons 21:06 <+Maulkin> ** minutes dups from SJJ to above list 21:07 <+aj> moray: happy to move on now too? 21:07 <+vedran_sjj> yeah I said what I meant to say 21:07 <+moray> aj: I think we want to avoid just turning into discussion of specific points here, so definitely 21:08 <+Sledge> ok 21:08 <+Sledge> (brief) questions for the teams 21:08 <+stockholm> must go to bed soon 21:08 <+Maulkin> Sledge: I need a small section in (4) for gwolf's comments 21:09 <+Maulkin> Are we taking questions from -discuss? 21:09 <+Sledge> Maulkin: no problem 21:09 <+aj> oh, i guess we are 21:09 <+Maulkin> Caus eI can relay 21:09 <+Sledge> please do so 21:09 <+Sledge> 10 minutes for questions, we'll be ruthless about moving on 21:09 <+stockholm> should i comment about the sponsorship later? 21:10 <+Maulkin> stockholm: Yeah... 21:10 <+Maulkin> I think 21:10 <+marga> vedran_sjj: if DC7 is in SJJ, who will be the local-team leader and how will that work? 21:10 <+vedran_sjj> sapphire will be the leader, but our team on democratic principles 21:10 <+vedran_sjj> our team WORKS on democratic principles 21:11 <+aj> so i believe HP at least are committed to sponsoring debconf independent of the venue, as long as the conference is effective at improving debian; i think that's worth noting explicitly, since sjj were concerned it might be a weakness for them 21:11 <+vedran_sjj> there will be at least three deputees 21:11 <+vedran_sjj> Amar, Amila and myself 21:11 <+Sledge> ok 21:11 <+Sledge> marga: answered for you? 21:12 <+marga> Sledge: I guess. Just one more thing, who would be communicating with the orga team? 21:12 <+vedran_sjj> all four of us 21:12 * h01ger hopes they will be(come) part of the orga team ;) 21:12 <+Sledge> ok - next question please 21:13 <+Maulkin> Both teams: Why do you want to host debconf? 21:13 <+moray> I'll go? 21:13 <+vedran_sjj> moray: you first now :) 21:13 <+Sledge> go 21:14 <+aj> both go, it's irc; but be brief :) 21:14 <+moray> 'to make Debian better' - or, more specifically, because we're really enjoyed previous debconfs and want to contribute something back 21:14 <+Sledge> ok - vedran_sjj?? 21:14 <+vedran_sjj> we have a strong Linux community, with this I believe that we would push that com. towards Debian 21:14 <+Sledge> ok; next Q 21:14 <+aj> "com." ? 21:14 <+aj> community 21:14 <+vedran_sjj> community 21:15 <+Maulkin> Something coming from -discuss 21:15 <+stockholm> i have a question for for edinburgh: what options did you explore for budget food? did you investigate different places like the mosque, to combine both price and variety? 21:16 <+moray> Sledge: should I answer that now? 21:16 <+stockholm> something like indish on fridays, pasta on mondays, haggis on sat... (c: 21:17 <+Sledge> moray: please, yes 21:17 <+bdale> I need to leave to fetch my son from camp, back in 20 mins or so, will stay logged in to read scrollback on my return 21:18 <+aj> Sledge: last round of questions? 21:19 <+moray> the mosque kitchen is still an available option. the catering option at Teviot (for example) is a flexible canteen, and is much cheaper than other external caterers we've investigated. really the best solution depends on how much money the organising team overall decides to devote to food. the precise details on food can be organised much closer to the event than the main venue booking 21:19 <+Sledge> aj: one more Q after moray's answer 21:19 <+moray> I can give more detail, but I guess that's enough? 21:19 <+marga> This is a comment, and a follow-up question. After the experience in MEX we've learned to distrust things that are promised. So it would be nice that whenever stating a situation you would state if it's an actual fact, a fact that is confirmed to happen, or just an informal promise... So, both teams, do you have a 'Plan B' for things that were promised but haven't happened yet? 21:19 <+Sledge> ok... 21:19 * Maulkin has 3... questions (all short) 21:19 <+Sledge> SJJ first? 21:19 <+marga> (sorry if I rushed). 21:19 <+Maulkin> From (-discuss) 21:19 * Sledge tickles marga for diving in 21:19 <+vedran_sjj> marga: please be more exact 21:19 <+aj> to clarify, i think marga means promised by sponsors, not by the local team 21:20 <+marga> vedran_sjj: like network in the rooms, or that sort of stuff, which is not there yet. 21:20 <+vedran_sjj> marga: for ISP, we discussed with their manager and they said that we will have an official "letter of intent" but sadly their marketing guy was out of town 21:21 <+Sledge> moray: please have your answer ready too 21:21 <+vedran_sjj> network in rooms - there is infrastructure, they just need a few switches to hook it up 21:21 <+vedran_sjj> they have Cat5 in the rooms 21:21 <+vedran_sjj> so I guess plan B is: we will provide the switches ;) 21:22 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: ok, done? 21:22 <@h01ger> vedran_sjj, for visas at the airport? 21:22 <+vedran_sjj> most other stuff I can think of is promised to be free, but at worst we will pay for it 21:22 <+Sledge> moray: EDI response? 21:23 <+moray> I don't think we're relying on anything that isn't already in place. there's still the question of negotations on facilities falling through before contracts are signed, etc. - I don't think our venues are fly-by-night like that, but this is also why we've been keeping a number of venue options open to get the best deal while we negotiate 21:23 <+Sledge> ok 21:23 <+moray> nothing we've asked for from the venues is 'unusual' for them, so I don't foresee problems 21:23 <+stockholm> what about if the rooms are not 24/7 in edi? 21:23 <+vedran_sjj> h01ger: we have a promise from Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of B&H and we also have confirmation from other similar venues that they have experience with this 21:24 <+moray> stockholm: we now have both the ECA and Teviot offering 24/7 21:24 <+vedran_sjj> h01ger: thats pretty much as good as it gets.... 21:24 <+stockholm> moray: ah, thanks 21:24 <+Sledge> right 21:24 <+moray> stockholm: if we didn't have that, we do also have a backup option of another space we could use at night nearby 21:24 <+Maulkin> My questions from -discuss? 21:24 <+stockholm> moray: good 21:24 <@h01ger> vedran_sjj, nods - but you know gwolf also had promises from the bureucrazy... 21:24 <+Sledge> as Maulkin has a couple of questions from -discuss, please dive in QUICKLY 21:24 <+aj> Sledge: discussing each teams alternatives to running dc7 after maulkin? 21:24 <+Maulkin> "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking" 21:24 <+Sledge> aj: can do 21:25 <+Maulkin> No. 21:25 <+Maulkin> Crap. Ignore that 21:25 <+Maulkin> "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?" 21:25 <+vedran_sjj> h01ger: personally I trust the other organizations that organized similar events 21:25 <+aj> (2009; 2008 will be on a different continent apparently) 21:25 <+Sledge> what's the Q? 21:25 <+Sledge> ok 21:25 <+moray> please make clear which questions we're meant to answer, and which are noise, yes ;) 21:25 <+Maulkin> Bith teams: "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?" 21:26 <+Sledge> SJJ: ?? 21:26 <@h01ger> (2009) 21:26 <@Ganneff> 2009 21:26 <+stockholm> (isnt that question rather hypothetical, since it is far in the future?) 21:26 <+vedran_sjj> we will bid on 2009 but I doubt that we will get the same prices... 21:26 <+Sledge> ok 21:26 <+Sledge> EDI: ?? 21:28 <+Maulkin> I think the response I'm seeing elsewhere is: 21:28 <+moray> I think some people will be 'burnt out' for another DebConf bid after the length of time that's led up to this one; also at points in this process it's been implied that the UK is simply too expensive a country, and if prices are unlikely to fall significantly. however, we do have people on the team who would be expect to be interested in bidding again in 2009 if it doesn't happen this year 21:28 <+Maulkin> Ahh, food. 21:28 <+Maulkin> Gah 21:28 <+Sledge> Maulkin: next Q please 21:28 <+Maulkin> "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking / is there food or restarants generally around the place?" 21:29 <+Sledge> ok 21:29 <+Maulkin> (That's the last from -discuss) 21:29 <+moray> Maulkin: do you mean s/we can/can we/? 21:29 <+Maulkin> yes, can we 21:29 <+Sledge> EDI: ?? 21:29 * h01ger thinks the uk is cheaper than .no and .fi - isnt it? 21:29 <+moray> h01ger: yes 21:29 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: we can get food 24/7 21:29 <+aj> vedran_sjj: from where? the hotel or surrounding shops or...? 21:29 <+moray> Maulkin: yes, we're right in the middle of the city 21:30 <+vedran_sjj> aj: from hotel and the nearby restaurant (very cheap) 21:30 <+marga> moray: do the pubs close? 21:30 <+moray> Maulkin: a lot of bars/restaurants nearby, and fast food places nearby for late night 21:30 <+vedran_sjj> aj: though the restaurant is not 24/7 :) 21:30 <+moray> marga: yes, at different times from each other 21:31 <+Maulkin> Time for one more Q? 21:31 <+Sledge> questions done I think 21:31 <+Sledge> Maulkin: no, too late 21:31 <+Maulkin> ok, ta 21:31 <+Sledge> time to move on 21:31 <+Sledge> aj: ?? 21:31 <+aj> okay, alternatives now? 21:32 <+Sledge> yup - ask away 21:32 <+Maulkin> Alternatives? 21:32 <+Maulkin> ** minutes: questions and answers section above 21:33 <+aj> so, if the other team hosts the conference, what will your team end up doing? helping out remotely as part of the orga team; running something else? what ideas do people have? people from -discuss might want to chime in to, i don't know if we want to demoderate briefly 21:33 <+aj> i'd say max 15m for this at this point? 21:33 <+Maulkin> aj: No, I can relay 21:33 <+Sledge> yes, please relay to keep things sane 21:33 <+stockholm> i need to go to be. 21:33 <+stockholm> bed 21:34 <+vedran_sjj> aj: some team members will help out 21:34 <+Maulkin> stockholm: /msg me with any commenst you want me to relay 21:34 <+aj> one possibility i see for sarajevo is having a regional miniconference, or a regional "free software" conference -- both those have been quite successful in australia 21:35 * Maulkin swaps hats around 21:35 <+Maulkin> I'll carry on being part of the orga team no matter who gets it. 21:36 * Maulkin re-hats 21:36 <+aj> 06:36 aj: is this to imply that DebConf will be in EDI? 21:36 <+aj> to answer that on channel, actually 21:36 <+aj> no, definitely not -- it does imply i'd like to see a conference in sjj next year either way though 21:36 <+moray> Maulkin: also from Edinburgh we have e.g. someone interested in helping with video team stuff in SJJ, Paul Sladen who says he'd attend and sleep lots ;) 21:37 <+moray> (er, s/someone interested/Mark Brown interested/) 21:37 <+Sledge> sladen will sleep lots wherever, I can attest to that :-) 21:37 <+aj> 06:36 is either venue short of regional conferences already? 21:37 <+aj> edi, sjj; are there other local conferences you can go to if dc isn't local? 21:38 <+vedran_sjj> aj: there are no other confs 21:39 <+moray> aj: I think that depends what you mean by 'local'; there do tend to be Debian *social* events in the UK, though mostly down in the south of England, while it's quite easy to get from Edinburgh to events on the continent 21:39 <+moray> (e.g. KDE, GNOME conferences) 21:40 <+marga> (for those not familiar with UK slang, 'the continent' = 'the rest of Europe that's not the UK'). 21:40 <+aj> vedran_sjj: is it difficult for bosnians to get to KDE, GNOME etc conferences that moray mentions? i guess due to travel costs? 21:41 <+vedran_sjj> aj: yes, there are visa issues and the general financial issues 21:41 <+vedran_sjj> aj: though I'm wandering about the purpose of this line of questions 21:42 <+Maulkin> Otehrs on -discuss are wondering too 21:42 <+vedran_sjj> s/wandering/wondering/ sorry 21:43 <+Sledge> aj: ?? 21:43 <+aj> damn, and i thought i'd be the one asking the difficult questions 21:43 <+Sledge> :-) 21:44 <+aj> okay, so this requires a little background 21:44 <+aj> in australia, we have an annual linux conference; it started in '99, missed a year, continued in 2001 and has been annual since then 21:44 <+aj> i was on the organising team for it in 2002 (we had about 250-300 people), and have been more or less involved in most of them since then 21:45 <+aj> the focus of the conference is basically "it's too hard to travel to europe for most of us to see all their cool talks, ditto america, so let's bring them out here" 21:45 <+aj> in 2002 we also started running a debian miniconf, which attracted about 100 people, mostly debian users rather than developers, and has continued ever year since too 21:46 <+aj> it's different to debconf, since it's more about talks and users than hacking and developers, but is quite interesting 21:47 <+aj> it just strikes me that bosnia/the balkans are in a similar situation, and maybe a similar solution would be interesting; i know a few people i've talked to who are in favour of edi for dc7, also think that a "linux.conf.balkans" every year would be a fascinating event 21:48 <+Sledge> ok... 21:48 <+Sledge> aj: done? 21:48 <+vedran_sjj> aj: interesting idea, but it's a bit hard to think about that when we don't know if we will host DebConf or not 21:48 <+aj> yes 21:48 <+Sledge> right 21:48 <+Maulkin> aj, would it not make sense to use a DebConf as a kick-off for an annual series? 21:48 <+Maulkin> From -discuss 21:48 <+Maulkin> Quick answer please :) 21:48 * Sledge nods Maulkin 21:48 <+aj> Maulkin: it could easily, the question is what would edi do then? i don't even have a guess for that 21:49 <+Sledge> right 21:49 <+Sledge> I think we're wandering off, time to get back to the agenda 21:49 <+aj> yup 21:50 <+Maulkin> All ok form -discuss. 21:50 <+Maulkin> *from 21:50 <+Sledge> orga team comments 21:50 <+Sledge> item 4 21:51 <+Maulkin> Ok. 21:51 * Maulkin needs a little bit here from gwolf and stockholm 21:51 <@Ganneff> then start 21:51 <+Maulkin> i asked sponsors if they would sponsor either debconf or sarajevo when asking for sponsorship last time around. and they consider both "europe" and would sponsor. e.g. the big providers in germany etc. 21:52 <+marga> I guess there's and EDI missing there. 21:52 <+Maulkin> Yes. 21:52 <+Maulkin> 21:00 As for the local teams, the EDI team looks more responsable/grown-up, and I must acknowledge their balance - even on looking on Sarajevo information when the other team could not answer something 21:52 <+Maulkin> 21:02 The SJJ team looks very enthusiastic, and they (claim to - should we believe them? I do at least :) ) have experience on other non-Debconf conferences - Now, as for my experience here, no conference gets you ready for Debconf... But still :) 21:52 <+Maulkin> 21:02 Anyway, I won't go anymore on the issue-per-issue thing 21:52 <+Maulkin> 21:02 The amount of details we can work on for both sides is huge 21:52 <+Maulkin> 21:03 Both venues have great installations, but I think the Terme hotel provides a more comfortable setting where we will be able to sit and work 21:52 <+Maulkin> [ends] 21:52 <+Sledge> Maulkin: thanks 21:53 <+Sledge> any other orga team comments please 21:53 <+Maulkin> Oh, and for me, I'm staying out of particular discussions, due to potential bias. 21:53 <@Ganneff> my opinion about this meeting is known, so i dont speak much more then when it comes to "decision". 21:54 <+Sledge> anybody else? 21:54 <+Maulkin> yes. 21:54 <+aj> Ganneff: can you summarise that to the list when it's convenient for the record, please? 21:55 <+Maulkin> <@mooch> Maulkin: nokia comment, please 21:55 <+marga> I don't have comments. 21:55 <+Maulkin> No idea what that means though 21:55 <+marga> nokia will probably not have a problem with the venue 21:55 <+bdale> mooch is primary point of contact for Nokia as a sponsor, I presume 21:56 <+Maulkin> Erm... 21:56 <+aj> Maulkin: want me to take the heat for quoting this one? :) 21:57 <+marga> aj: I'll do it. 21:57 <+Maulkin> aj: Please, I can't as I have bias 21:58 <+aj> marga, go ahead, i'd like to comment on it afterwards (too) 21:58 <+Sledge> please just post the comment 21:58 <+Maulkin> ok. 21:58 <+marga> It is the opinion of several people (mooch is the one raising it at this moment), that should the conference happen in SJJ, Safir might not be the best person to lead the group since it needs a lot of cold blood and controled spirit not to break apart, and he has demonstrated to be too influenced by personal feelings and attacking attitude during the process. 21:58 <+Maulkin> Thanks marga 22:00 <+aj> the term "impulsive" maybe have appeared too; i'd just like to say that i've been very impressed by the excitement and enthusiasm of the sjj team, and while i think that has boiled over into taking offense unnecessarily now and then, it's that sort of passion that makes these sorts of conferences great 22:00 <+Sledge> if we have no more orga comments, I'd like to move us on again 22:00 <+Maulkin> Sledge: Checking -discuss now 22:00 * h01ger is not sure if he has something new to say 22:01 <@Ganneff> um. sjj didnt comment on that one point yet? 22:01 <+aj> otoh, actually running them tends to teach you hot to deal with those sorts of reactions, because you get so stressed out you have to learn one way or another 22:01 <+vedran_sjj> Ganneff: what point exactly? 22:01 <@Ganneff> vedran_sjj: margas quote 22:01 <+vedran_sjj> Ganneff: amar_sjj responded on -discuss 22:02 <@Ganneff> different chan, not in minutes 22:02 <+Maulkin> I think that's all 22:02 <@h01ger> Maulkin: the bosnian team consists of 27 people. Safir initiated everything but the DebCof will be handled by the TEAM. 22:02 <+Sledge> ok, let's see that response and move on please 22:02 <+vedran_sjj> the sjj team consists of 27 people. safir started everything but debconf will be handled by the TEAM 22:02 <+Maulkin> Can we move? 22:02 <+vedran_sjj> thanks h01ger 22:02 <+Sledge> yes 22:02 <+Sledge> item 5 by my count 22:02 <+Maulkin> ** minutes above comments from orga 22:02 * h01ger looks at the agenda to see if he should say something now or later 22:02 * Maulkin nods 22:02 <+Sledge> h01ger: shout now if you're going to 22:02 <@Ganneff> h01ger: you are orga, so talk 22:03 <+Sledge> h01ger: ?? 22:04 * h01ger thinks 22:04 * Sledge urges h01ger to think quickly :-) 22:05 <@h01ger> i think i value the "strong, mature, experienced local team" EDI team, but must admit he has also been impressed by the SJJ team recently but still has doubts. 22:05 <+Sledge> right 22:05 <+Sledge> thankyou, let's move on 22:05 <@h01ger> and me shuts up, for sake 22:05 <+Sledge> 5: "weigh up bids against priorities" 22:06 <+Maulkin> ** minutes see abouve for orga team comments, now weigh up bids against priorities" 22:06 <+marga> -> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList 22:06 <+Sledge> marga: yup 22:06 <+Sledge> right, let's get this organised 22:07 <+Sledge> would orga people prefer to give their rankings against all the priorities at once, or shall we go through an item at a time? 22:07 <+aj> how about we see if moray and vedran_sjj can agree on answers for each priority first? 22:08 <+marga> Sledge: I don't know if ranking is important... 22:08 <+Maulkin> Again, I'm abstaining this section. 22:08 <+Sledge> aj: I think we've probably seen enough discussion of those 22:08 <+marga> At least, we should discard those priorities which are pretty much the same for both venues. 22:08 <+moray> aj: I think that'll just turn into a fight about details and how you weigh up sub-points of each? 22:08 <+aj> sorry as in "both venues seems to be roughly equally affordable for sponsors" ? 22:08 <+Maulkin> Ok... 22:08 <+Maulkin> Suggestion. 22:08 <+Sledge> Maulkin: go ahead 22:09 <+Maulkin> Sledge: state the 'item' and give an opinion on which is stronger or weaker or the same. 22:09 <+Sledge> ... 22:09 * h01ger has another comment, sorry. the SJJ team has not been involved in dc before (like stockholm demanded before dc6 and now waved this requirement) - OTOH people from the EDI team have and i think its good. 22:09 <+Maulkin> Ask for objections from local teams and orga team 22:09 <+Sledge> Maulkin: ok, I'll do that 22:09 <+Maulkin> Then move on 22:09 <@Ganneff> 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 are too similar for both locations and can be kicked imo. 22:09 <+Sledge> h01ger: you're too late 22:10 <+Sledge> right 22:10 <+Sledge> item 1: cost 22:10 <+aj> (jftr: safir was involved as a volunteer at dc5 aiui) 22:10 <+marga> Ganneff: I disagree. 22:10 <+Maulkin> Can we keep this short BTW? 22:11 <+Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI 22:11 <+marga> Ganneff: I think the points at stake are 1,2,4 and 8. 22:11 <+Sledge> does that sound a fair summary? 22:11 <+vedran_sjj> Ganneff marga: I must object 22:12 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: what's the problem? 22:12 <+moray> Sledge: yes: prices on the ground vary depending exactly what we decide to pay for for attendees, but certainly things of the same quality will be cheaper in Sarajevo, whereas getting to Edinburgh gives budget airlines for Europeans, and significantly cheaper flights for others 22:12 <+vedran_sjj> I think all points need to be weighed 22:12 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: ok, we'll weigh them all up 22:12 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: are you happy with the summary of cost? 22:13 <+vedran_sjj> Sledge: you mean the spreadsheet? yes we're fine with that 22:13 <+Sledge> right 22:13 <+marga> vedran_sjj: he means this: " in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI" 22:13 <+Sledge> pri #2: local team 22:14 <@Ganneff> edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. i trust both to make a good conf. 22:14 * h01ger also thinks 1,2,4 and 8 are the important (different) ones 22:14 <+moray> marga appeared to want to say something here; I don't think it's useful for us teams to comment? 22:14 <+Sledge> Ganneff: thanks, about what I'd have said 22:15 <+Sledge> marga: please dive in if you have something 22:15 <+moray> Sledge: can I correct that we've intentionally only listed people who were already involved, there are a lot more people in the UK who've expressed interest in helping *if* DebConf happens here 22:15 <+Sledge> moray: noted 22:15 <+moray> (including edlug, compsoc people as mentioned on the wiki) 22:16 <+vedran_sjj> Sledge: also applies for SJJ 22:16 <+aj> if both teams could keep some room at the conference for non-organisers, that would be great :) 22:16 * h01ger wonders if the localteams should be involved so much in weighting the prios.. 22:16 <+bdale> my opinion is that both teams have critical mass already 22:16 <+Sledge> any further comments on pri2? 22:16 * Sledge waits 30 secs 22:17 <+marga> Ok 22:17 <+marga> Sorry, was away one moment, I have a comment. 22:17 <+Sledge> marga: go 22:18 <+marga> It's my understanding that it's a question of "National Pride" for SJJ people to hold a DebConf. However, I do fear that they might not be ready for hosting DebConf yet. 22:19 <+Sledge> right 22:19 <+Sledge> 30 secs 22:19 <+marga> Mainly because only Safir has been present in a previous DebConf, and DebConf is not like any other conference. 22:19 * h01ger nods 22:19 <+Sledge> pri3: good working spaces 22:20 <+Sledge> as far as I can see, both bids should have this covered 22:20 <+Sledge> if you disagree, please respond ASAP 22:20 <+bdale> I think so too 22:20 <+vedran_sjj> Sledge: 24/7, special rooms 22:20 <@Ganneff> both are covered here 22:20 <@Ganneff> hotel has enough room, edi also. 22:20 <+vedran_sjj> Sledge: same building 22:20 <+Maulkin> That's a different point 22:20 <+Sledge> moving on 22:21 <+Sledge> pri4: excellant network connectivity 22:21 <@h01ger> vedran_sjj..., u didnt say anything new/interesting now... (really) (at 3) 22:21 <+vedran_sjj> h01ger: am I allowed to point out our strengths? 22:21 <@Ganneff> pri4 - edi may have more uplink, but sjj would give us also enough for debconf IMO 22:22 <+Sledge> both have offers of networking from local ISPs that should be enough for us; EDI may have an advantage in terms of absolute bw 22:22 <+Maulkin> vedran_sjj: Please just state if you disagree with the summaries 22:22 <@h01ger> vedran_sjj, i thought the orga team weights the priorities - you had your time allready.. 22:22 <+Sledge> any disagreement? 22:22 <+Sledge> 30 secs 22:22 <+aj> i believe the edi venue also has wired networking already hooked up, whereas the sjj team may have to do that themselves 22:22 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: I disagree with summary of pri3 22:22 * h01ger is not sure about aruba and other hw sponsors but the SJJ offerings are not that bad 22:23 <@h01ger> (because esp. aruba-sponsorship relies on local dealers..) 22:23 <@Ganneff> aj: no already setup wired did suffice up tonow 22:23 <@Ganneff> aj: i think we need to run cables in both locations for some parts 22:23 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: what's the problem with (3)? 22:24 <+Maulkin> vedran_sjj: Do you feel sjj is stronger in terms of the actual working spaces? (not rooms etc) 22:24 <+marga> vedran_sjj: pri 3 refers to hacklabs / talk rooms. Not allocation. 22:24 <+moray> Ganneff: yeah, in ECA we might want to add some, and in either venue would certainly need to split out for individual machines etc. 22:24 <+vedran_sjj> Sledge: we have confirmed 24/7 and availability of server and video rooms 22:24 <@h01ger> Ganneff, which might be harder in a hotel (but wasnt a problem in brasil) 22:24 <+Maulkin> vedran_sjj: So does Edinburgh 22:24 <@Ganneff> h01ger: not according to the hotel, we asked that. should be doable. 22:24 <@h01ger> Ganneff, ok 22:25 <+vedran_sjj> we also have more hacklabs available 22:25 <+marga> vedran_sjj: more? How many rooms for how many people? 22:25 <@Ganneff> i wouldnt count numbers there, as some locations in edi have lots of rooms. 22:25 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj: I think most people are happy with both bids on this front, we should move on 22:25 <@Ganneff> yes. next. 22:25 * h01ger nods to sledge 22:26 <+vedran_sjj> marga: we have 6 rooms available, one large room up to 300 people and the other are smaller 22:26 <+Sledge> people happy with (4)? 22:26 <+bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out 22:26 <+vedran_sjj> bdale: I agree 22:26 <+moray> bdale: in either venue in Edinburgh rooms would be limited by what we rent rather than space 22:26 <+moray> (as Ganneff said) 22:26 * Maulkin moves for closure on (3) and (4) 22:26 <+Sledge> 30 secs on (4), then move on 22:27 <+bdale> my opinion is that both teams have adequate answers for 3 and 4 to ensure a good conf 22:27 <+Sledge> (5): 22:27 <+Sledge> quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity 22:27 <+moray> is this about sponsored catering or outside stuff, or both? 22:27 <+Sledge> both, I think 22:27 <@Ganneff> for 5 - both sites can offer good food. the price may vary in EDI, depending on what is chosen. 22:28 <+bdale> moray: I meant both 22:28 * h01ger nods to Ganneff 22:28 <+Sledge> on site food seems to be good enough in both, though maybe more expensive in EDI 22:28 <+aj> expensive goes back to point (1), no? 22:28 * Maulkin nods 22:28 <+Sledge> for separate food, EDI may have a slight advantage due to being right in the city centre; again, both are adequate 22:28 <@Ganneff> where i only vote against using the mosque kitchen for the whole thing, but except that i guess both sides will feed us good enough. maybe edi more expensive, depends on what they can talk out of the guys there. 22:29 <+bdale> for perspective, I think dc2 and dc3 were barely adequate in this regard, dc4 had great in-house meals but going off site was a challenge. dc5 was so-so on food all told, and dc6 was stunningly good because there were many options available within easy walk at good prices 22:29 <+Sledge> any arguments on (5)? 30 secs 22:29 <+Maulkin> bdale: Thus, do you have a preferred venue for this? 22:29 <+bdale> Maulkin: I've been to EDI, I've never been to SJJ, I find it hard to differentiate well based on what has been asserted in the proposals 22:30 <+Maulkin> Or any objections to "They're both equal"? :) 22:30 <+bdale> I'd abstain 22:30 <+Maulkin> :) 22:30 <+Sledge> ok, moving on to (6): suitabile housing in close proximity 22:30 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: sjj is much cheaper 22:30 <+moray> Maulkin: well, I'd mildly object on that, but I agree no one will starve in either 22:30 <+Maulkin> .oO(This is feeling like a SPI meeting)Oo. 22:30 <+Maulkin> vedran_sjj: That was section (1), it's been noted 22:30 * bdale whacks Maulkin 22:30 <+Sledge> Maulkin: *grin* 22:30 <@h01ger> vedran_sjj, thats is point1. atm you're only weakening point2 22:31 <@h01ger> what does "suitabile housing in close proximity" mean? 22:31 <+Sledge> housing: sjj has an advantage with accommodation on the same site; EDI is more spread out (but not a *huge* amount) 22:31 <@h01ger> accomodation? 22:31 <+Maulkin> h01ger: yes 22:31 <+marga> SJJ has an advantage over EDI at prio. 6, since it's a four star hotel, and everything is close together. EDI's proposal is still acceptable and "DebConf level". 22:32 * Sledge nods marga 22:32 * h01ger nods to marga 22:32 * bdale agrees 22:32 <@Ganneff> accomodation is in SJJ all in one, EDI is spread in the city. and has of course a lot of hotels also there. 22:32 <@Ganneff> plus for sjj imo. 22:32 <@h01ger> anybody taking notes on this pro/con things? 22:32 <+Sledge> no arguments? moving on in 30s 22:32 * Maulkin is taking minutes. 22:32 <+aj> one advantage to EDI on that score is people can opt to go to a 5-star hotel if they're willing to pay 22:33 <+aj> the SJJ bid gets everyone into the 4-star hotel instead 22:33 <+bdale> aj: I'm presuming you could also do that in SJJ, though? cheap taxis, too. 22:33 <+aj> ah, good point 22:33 <+Sledge> (7): presentation facilities 22:33 <+aj> this is what happens when you walk everywhere... 22:33 <@Ganneff> for 7 - SJJ has the technic of the hotel included for free. sjj has the lecture halls in ECA and big rooms in teviot. 22:33 <+bdale> traveling on an expense account is definitely a different experience... 22:33 * Sledge nods Ganneff 22:34 <+bdale> s/sjj/EDI/, right? 22:34 <@Ganneff> sjj has a big room for main talks, with stuff for beamer and sound, and various smaller rooms for other things. 22:34 <@Ganneff> edi has the lecture halls or big room, and also various smaller rooms. dont know technic in lecture halls in EDI. 22:34 <+marga> So, it's even? 22:34 <+Sledge> sounds like 22:34 <+bdale> both sound adequate 22:34 <+moray> Ganneff: Maulkin and sladen_uk have worked in audiovisual stuff (and kevc_uk does sound stuff), so we have lots of contacts for getting lent/sponsored equipment, besides what's in the venues 22:35 <+moray> (so yes, I'd agree both are adequate) 22:35 * h01ger nods to moray 22:35 <+Sledge> ok, so even there by all accounts 22:35 <+Sledge> moving on in 30s 22:36 <@Ganneff> (that even is why i mentioned skip) 22:36 <+Sledge> (8) travel logistics 22:36 <@Ganneff> plus for EDI, way more airlines there. 22:36 <+Sledge> this point is a major plus towards EDI 22:36 <@h01ger> visas also 22:36 * marga nods. 22:37 <+bdale> both require 3 airline flights for me. there seem to be more connection options to EDI, and EDI seems to be cheaper though not by a lot. 22:37 <+Sledge> ok 22:37 <+Sledge> any argument? moving on in 30s 22:37 <+bdale> I don't appear to need a visa for either. 22:38 <+aj> the one world alliance airlines don't seem to travel to sarajevo, though i need to talk to my travel agent again 22:38 <@h01ger> bdale, you us-american :) 22:38 <+marga> bdale: it's been shown that from the list of DC6 attendees more people would need a visa to go to SJJ than to go to EDI. 22:38 <+moray> Sledge: we may have trouble if a *lot* of Europeans take budget flights to a DebConf in Edinburgh :p 22:39 <+Sledge> moray: worry about that as/when 22:39 <@h01ger> moray, same is true for SJJ... (probably even more) 22:40 <@Ganneff> i think both airports are well connected for the number of people 22:40 <+Sledge> moving on to (9) accessibility 22:40 <+bdale> marga: I understand that. I just took the time to research what it would take me to get there, so thought I'd comment. I mentioned here before the meeting that neither country is on the list of places I'm supposed to avoid on behalf of my employer, which is good news. 22:40 <@Ganneff> 9 is even for both. SJJ has a slight advantage in the hotel, EDI out in the streets with the need for all taxis to have weelchair access. SJJ seems to have a bus for weelchairs for us to use whenever we want. in EDI disabled people most probably need to go to a hotel, not our hostels. (ie together with sponsors that dont take hostels). 22:40 <+Maulkin> 22:40 <@Jon_uk> (8) summary? 22:40 <+Sledge> Maulkin: ah, true 22:40 * marga nods to Ganneff 22:40 <@h01ger> Ganneff, the both airports point is not true 22:41 <@h01ger> while i nod to the accessability point of Ganneff :) 22:41 <@Ganneff> h01ger: the capacity for the number of people is ok at both locations. 22:41 <+Sledge> (8) summary: cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people 22:41 <@Ganneff> h01ger: we have a laughable amnount of people going there. 22:41 <@h01ger> Ganneff, the capacity yes. 22:42 <+Sledge> are we agreed on accessibility? 22:42 <+moray> Ganneff: it sounds like you're implying people would need to take taxis: in Edinburgh the ordinary buses are generally wheelchair accessible too; also because we're in the centre probably no attendees would *need* to take a bus even if they want to see the city 22:42 <@Ganneff> moray: no. just mentioning the fact. 22:43 <+Maulkin> Sledge: I'd rate them == 22:43 <@Ganneff> accessibility is equal 22:43 <@h01ger> so both are equal on that 22:43 <+Sledge> ok, agreed 22:43 <+Sledge> right 22:43 <+Sledge> I hope somebody out there is counting these answers 22:43 <+Maulkin> Crap. ok. 22:43 <+marga> The main problem is not counting but weighing. 22:43 <+Sledge> are the 2 teams happy overall with the responses here? 22:44 <+aj> okay, so clear draw on (5)-catering; (7), and (9) 22:44 <+vedran_sjj> Sledge: sjj is fine 22:44 <@h01ger> Sledge, i think cheaper is not the point in 8 (as its 1). but more flights (budgets and less changes) and less visa trouble certainly is. 22:44 <+Sledge> EDI: happy with the summaries? 22:44 <+Sledge> h01ger: good point, yes 22:44 <+aj> different advantages both ways, but no clear winner on (1), and (9) 22:45 <+marga> aj: I think 9 was declared equal. 1 is actually like 1a and 1b. 22:45 <@h01ger> aj, wasnt 9 equal 22:45 <@h01ger> ?! 22:45 <+aj> sorry 22:45 <+aj> i mean edi-is-better-due-to-X, sjj-is-better-due-to-Y, but it evens out 22:46 * Maulkin is summarising atm 22:46 <+marga> So, how do we weigh / decide ? 22:46 <@h01ger> i really cannot follow it :-) (to late) - /me suggest to wait for Maulkins summary.. 22:47 <@h01ger> too late even! 22:48 <+Maulkin> 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI 22:48 <+Maulkin> 2 edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. 22:48 <+Maulkin> 3 equal 22:48 <+Maulkin> 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth 22:48 <+Maulkin> 5 both can offer good food 22:48 <+Maulkin> 6 sjj has advantage 22:48 <+Maulkin> 7 equal 22:48 <+Maulkin> 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people 22:48 <+Maulkin> 9 equal 22:48 <+Maulkin> I think 22:48 * h01ger likes to bring back in memory that we priorized them in order of importance 22:48 * Maulkin nods 22:48 <+Maulkin> I can do some evil scoring thing if you want. 22:48 <+marga> Maulkin: it depends. 22:49 <+Maulkin> ie: partial advantage = 0.5, full advantage = 1. 22:49 <+Maulkin> Times by 10-priority number 22:49 <+Maulkin> Or someone else do it :) 22:50 <+Sledge> how do the orga team wish to do this? 22:50 <@h01ger> Maulkin, go, Maulkin! 22:50 <+Maulkin> Or it's a stupid idea. 22:50 <+Maulkin> I dunno! :) 22:50 <+marga> I don't know, I don't like scoring, particularly because we didn't really debate the priorities. 22:50 * h01ger thinks this is ok-ish - we could also just weight 22:50 <+vedran_sjj> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out 22:50 <+Maulkin> Or we can just do: 22:50 <+Maulkin> 22:50 <@Igloo> kevc_uk: The local team who dress up in the silliest outfits win? 22:51 <+bdale> drop the equals, weigh the rest 22:51 <+marga> So, the points that matter are: 22:51 <+marga> 1 - cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI 22:51 <+marga> 2 - edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. 22:51 * sapphire_sjj puts on the silly hat :) 22:51 <+marga> 6 - sjj has advantage 22:51 * h01ger nods. but i really think 2 is not correctly summarized. we had a big local team in .mx too. 22:51 <+marga> 8 - cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people 22:51 <@Ganneff> h01ger: no, we had not. 22:51 <@h01ger> (nodding to bdale that was) 22:51 <@Ganneff> h01ger: it was said to be there. but wasnt. 22:51 <@h01ger> Ganneff, no. not in .mx. but before. 22:52 <@Ganneff> h01ger: here we know its there. 22:52 * h01ger wont start a wdiscussion about single points now 22:52 <@h01ger> (not more as i already did, sorry for that) 22:53 <+Maulkin> Quick issue: are we doing this by scoring, or consensus? 22:53 <+Sledge> consensus would be better, if possible 22:53 * h01ger nods 22:53 <@h01ger> consensus of whom though :) 22:54 <+Maulkin> Can we try that first? 22:54 <@h01ger> (tahts always the question) 22:54 <+aj> i'm not convinced that "more people" balances out the involvement in debian that the uk group have already had; mooch and marga had some specific concerns on that earlier, in particular 22:54 <+Maulkin> ok... 22:54 <+Maulkin> General comments/concerns on my summary above please :) 22:55 <+Maulkin> Are we taking general comments, or just orga? 22:55 <+marga> Yes, point 2 should be rephrased. 22:55 <+Maulkin> ok 22:56 <+moray> Maulkin: comments from whom? I still think Edinburgh has a definite advantage on 5(b) food outside the venue, since that's a lot of the reason I pressed for it to be *in* the city... 22:56 <+vedran_sjj> moray: thats debatable 22:56 <+marga> 2 - EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences. 22:56 <+Maulkin> So != ? 22:57 <+moray> marga: UK people have also been involved in organising big non-Debian conferences, in case you're implying otherwise 22:57 <+marga> moray: I was not. 22:58 <+Maulkin> 22:55 <@Hydroxide> a bit of input suitable for replaying: items 1 seems to mostly be a washout; 6 and 8 balance out; in item 2, I think that the involvement in debian is an especially important advantage for edi since this is, after all, a DebConf, not a Free Software Conf. 22:58 <@h01ger> moray, i think "food outside the venue" is nice (and surely closer in EDI) but i dont think its really much relevant for debconf 22:59 <+moray> h01ger: ok, bdale said that was part of what he meant by that criterion 22:59 <@h01ger> Maulkin, could you please repost the rephrased complete list? /me is tired of scrolling.. :) 23:00 <+Maulkin> Just a sec... 23:01 <+aj> we're calling (1), (6)+(8), (7) and (9) balanced for both groups, no? 23:01 <+Maulkin> How's this: 23:01 <+Maulkin> 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI. Equal 23:01 <+Maulkin> 2 EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences. Edi strong advantage 23:01 <+Maulkin> 3 equal 23:01 <+Maulkin> 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth. - equal 23:01 <+Maulkin> 5 both can offer good food - euqal 23:01 <+Maulkin> 6 sjj stong advantage 23:01 <+Maulkin> 7 equal 23:01 <+Maulkin> 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people - edi 23:01 <+Maulkin> slight advantage 23:01 <+Maulkin> 9 equal 23:01 <+bdale> h01ger: it really depends. if you like and/or are satisfied by the group meals, that can work fine. dc4 was like that for me, for example. if you're not, then what's available nearby is very important. in the case of dc6 it was particularly nice to be able to "wander off" in a small group to experience some local food and culture without having to make a big deal about it 23:02 <+Maulkin> Please object to this if you think it's wrong :) 23:02 <+Maulkin> I'd like to hear from sjj and edi here... 23:02 <+Maulkin> As to the above summary 23:02 <+aj> (3), i thought there was a slight advantage to sjj; but i haven't studied either venue in enough detail to say 23:02 <+vedran_sjj> why is 2 strong advantage for Edi? 23:03 <+moray> Maulkin: the 'strong' in 6 seems to be new 23:03 * h01ger thinks 5 is less important as 2+4 are in favor of EDI and 1+3 are equal. 23:03 <+aj> (5)-remote food was a slight advantage to edi, i thought too 23:03 * h01ger wonders if he maybe thats why _he_ doesnt care that much about 5? 23:03 <+vedran_sjj> aj: as I said before (and you silenced me), food outside venue is much cheaper in sjj 23:04 <+moray> aj: obviously I'm partisan, but I didn't feel the working spaces in SJJ were better than what we're proposing - they probably had more carpet, but they seemed more awkward spaces IMO 23:04 <+aj> oh, sorry, i should've reminded you to repeat that after moray had finished; doh 23:04 <@h01ger> vedran_sjj, how close is that? walking distance? 23:04 <+vedran_sjj> h01ger: yes, 5 minutes walk 23:05 <+marga> vedran_sjj: because, as it was stated before, it is important for the local team to have been involved in previous DebConfs. stockholm had actually said that it was a "requirement" for one of the local-team to have been an organizer of the previous year DebConf. SJJ has only Safir participating in DC5 as a volunteer, not as an organizer. While EDI has a big group of people who have been attendants/volunteers, and Maulkin was an organizer for DC6. 23:05 <+Maulkin> ok... 23:05 <@h01ger> and moray hangs out here since idunno 23:05 <+Maulkin> 1 equal 23:05 <+Maulkin> 2 EDI strong 23:05 <+Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight 23:05 <+Maulkin> 4 equal 23:05 <+Maulkin> 5 equal 23:05 <+Maulkin> 6 SJJ stong 23:05 <+Maulkin> 7 equal 23:05 <+Maulkin> 8 EDI slight 23:05 <+Maulkin> 9 equal 23:06 <+Maulkin> Which leaves: 23:06 <+Maulkin> 2 EDI strong 23:06 <+Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight 23:06 <+Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong 23:06 <+Maulkin> 8 EDI slight 23:06 <+aj> (4) and (5) i'd say EDI slight; (8) i'd say EDI "clear" 23:06 <+Maulkin> 'clear'? 23:06 * h01ger supports aj 23:06 <+aj> strong, but not to say it's more important than the previous priorities 23:06 <@h01ger> its prio 8 :) 23:06 <+marga> Actually, I thought that we had evened-out 3 and 4. If 3 is SJJ slight (nobody except vedran_sjj knows why), then 4 is EDI slight. 23:06 <+Maulkin> aj: ok, strong 23:06 <+sapphire_sjj> marga Safir has been in orga team for DC6 23:06 <+Maulkin> It'll be done with priorites anyway 23:07 <+Maulkin> objections to 4 and 5 edi weak? 23:07 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: yes objection to 5 23:07 <+aj> yes, likewise 23:07 <+moray> maulkin: 'edi weak' sounds like you mean 'edinburgh is weak' 23:07 <+aj> oh wait 23:07 <+Maulkin> Sorry, s/weak/slight/ 23:08 <+Maulkin> ok... 23:08 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: 4. Edi has no connectivity in hotel rooms 23:08 <+bdale> I commented on that in my email to -team 23:08 * h01ger just noticed that he knows three people wondering what sapphire_sjj did for dc6 - i'm sorry to say this... but 23:08 <+Maulkin> vedran_sjj: I think that was seen as a advantage as well as a disadvantage 23:08 <@Ganneff> h01ger: work before debconf on some parts 23:08 <+bdale> I'm not sure that connectivity in housing is actually a benefit. 23:09 <+Maulkin> Can we please agree that (3) and (4) cancel each other out? 23:09 <+moray> Maulkin: well, I think Edinburgh's better on both... 23:09 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: yes it was seen as a way to force people to go to venue, which in sjj is unneccesarry since hotel is the venue 23:09 <@h01ger> Maulkin, no, i dont agree 23:09 <+Maulkin> ok. 23:09 <@Ganneff> this doesnt get us anywhere... 23:09 * h01ger nods Ganneff 23:09 <@h01ger> 5min break? 23:09 * marga sighs and nods. 23:09 <+sapphire_sjj> h01ger, I did gather information, contacted sponsors and worked on the website 23:09 <@h01ger> sapphire_sjj, ok. 23:09 <+bdale> vedran_sjj: your point is well taken, but camping out in one's room and being in a public room with others is clearly not socially equivalent 23:09 <+Maulkin> (1) is equal, agreed? 23:10 <+aj> yes 23:10 <+Sledge> yes 23:10 <+bdale> vedran_sjj: I'm not saying it's a problem to have connectivity in the housing, just that it's not a clear advantage 23:10 * Maulkin waits... 23:10 <+Maulkin> (7) is equal, agreed? 23:10 <+aj> yes 23:10 <+Sledge> yup 23:11 <+Maulkin> 30 secs 23:11 <+marga> yes 23:11 <+Maulkin> (9) is equal, agreed? 23:11 <+Maulkin> (30 secs) 23:11 <+aj> yes 23:11 <+bdale> agreed 23:11 <+Sledge> yup 23:12 <+Maulkin> ok, thanks 23:12 <+Maulkin> Right, now the hard bit :) 23:12 <+Maulkin> 2: edi strong. 23:12 <+Maulkin> Agreed? 23:12 <+aj> yes 23:12 <+vedran_sjj> no 23:12 <@h01ger> yes 23:12 <+Maulkin> (see above for reasoning) 23:12 <+sapphire_sjj> no 23:12 <+Sledge> Maulkin: yup 23:12 <+Maulkin> Ok, we'll come back to 2. 23:12 <+marga> yes. 23:12 <@Ganneff> slight 23:12 <+Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight 23:12 <@Ganneff> yes 23:12 <+Maulkin> Agreed? 23:13 <+moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet 23:13 <+marga> I don't see the reasoning, but I don't think it's worth the bother discussing it. 23:13 <+Maulkin> moray: Is that a disgree? 23:13 <+vedran_sjj> moray: 24/7 availability 23:13 <+vedran_sjj> moray: video and server rooms 23:13 * Maulkin marks 3 as contested 23:13 <+aj> vedran_sjj: moray's noted several times they've confirmed 24/7 availability for edi 23:13 <+Maulkin> 4 EDI slight 23:13 <@h01ger> me not really neither. but if we if give EDI the benifit of the doubt in "2 EDI strong"..., SJJ has 3 slightly 23:13 <+vedran_sjj> aj: confirmed? thats new 23:14 <+aj> vedran_sjj: since last week, yes 23:14 <+vedran_sjj> aj: video and server rooms remain 23:14 <+marga> yes for 4 EDI slight. 23:14 <@h01ger> so me takes back what he said before 23:14 * Maulkin hands back to Sledge 23:15 <+Maulkin> Or not. 23:15 <+Maulkin> Ok. 23:15 <+Maulkin> No objections to 4. 23:15 <+Maulkin> 5 EDI slight 23:15 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: 5 no! 23:15 <+vedran_sjj> Maulkin: based on what? 23:15 <+moray> vedran_sjj: (no, we have these too, as also said earlier) 23:15 <+Maulkin> Just state if you have objections please 23:15 <+Maulkin> Ok. That's on objection 23:16 <+Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong 23:16 <@Ganneff> yes 23:16 <+sapphire_sjj> Maulking, 5 object 23:16 <@h01ger> Maulkin, so 3 was equal? (as i just read on -dicuss that EDI has 24/7 for server/video as well) 23:16 <+Maulkin> Sledge: noted 23:16 <+marga> yes. 23:16 <+Maulkin> h01ger: It's been contested. 23:16 * Maulkin sees no objections to 6 23:16 <+Maulkin> 8 EDI strong 23:17 <+Maulkin> Objections? 23:17 <+aj> sorry, yes to both 6 and 8 23:17 <+moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6 23:17 <+aj> as in agree, not yes to objections :) 23:17 <@h01ger> Maulkin, ? dont know the word "contested"... what is the 3 now? well, i'll wait for the full list 23:17 <+aj> moray: hostels versus a hotel seems an advantage to sjj to me 23:17 <+marga> yes to 8. 23:17 <+Maulkin> moray: Ok, noted. 23:17 <@h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?! 23:18 <@Ganneff> h01ger: yes. 23:18 <+Maulkin> It's been noted for 6 is in dispute 23:18 <+Maulkin> 8 please. 23:18 <+moray> aj: ok, I didn't know the point was qualitative rather than 'is there some accomm. appropriately' 23:18 <+Maulkin> Edi strong. 23:18 <+Maulkin> I see no objections 23:18 <+Sledge> 8 is agreed 23:18 <+marga> h01ger: having a 4 star hotel that accommodates everyone, instead of two separate hostels sounds like better accomodation to me. 23:18 <+Maulkin> (sorry, I'm getting annoyed and want to go to bed) 23:18 <+Maulkin> ok! 23:19 <+Maulkin> Right, we have 4 contested items. 2,4,5 and 6 23:19 <+sapphire_sjj> 6 is agreed as well 23:19 <+aj> is (2) contested except by members of the teams it's referring to? 23:19 <@h01ger> Maulkin, the contestions from SJJ on 5 have been "revoked" by EDI 23:19 <@Ganneff> can we do the rest without *both* local teams? (sorry). they only contest the other side then imo. 23:19 <+Maulkin> 2: Edi strong, objection received from vedran_sjj and sapphire_sjj 23:19 * h01ger nods Ganneff 23:19 <+moray> Ganneff: I'm happy to keep quiet 23:20 <+moray> Ganneff: just didn't want to do so while my input was expected 23:20 <+Maulkin> ok. 23:20 <+Sledge> moray: thanks 23:20 <+Maulkin> sapphire_sjj: Are you ok with that? 23:20 <+vedran_sjj> Ganneff: I'll be quiet too 23:20 <@Ganneff> ok, so both local teams quiet. :) 23:20 <+Maulkin> 2 EDI strong 23:20 * h01ger wonders what the status of 3 is? 23:20 <+sapphire_sjj> Maulkin, ok 23:20 <+Maulkin> (30 secs) 23:20 <+bdale> item 2 is clearly a question of how the decision-making group feels more than something that can be measured in absolute terms 23:20 <+Sledge> yup 23:20 <@Ganneff> i would rate 2 as slight. 23:21 <+marga> I would rate it as strong 23:21 * h01ger would rate it as stronger than slight at least 23:21 <+marga> Should we go with semi-strong? slightly-strong? 23:21 * h01ger nods marga 23:22 <+Sledge> yuo 23:22 <+Maulkin> Ok... semi strong 23:22 <+Sledge> yup 23:22 <+aj> strong with noted preferences to slight from ganneff? 23:22 * Sledge strangles aj 23:22 <+Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight 23:22 <+aj> sorry, i typed slow :) 23:22 <@Ganneff> and to note it: thats from the meeting with them. 23:22 <@Ganneff> from the impression i got. 23:22 <+Maulkin> noted objections from moray 23:22 <+aj> Ganneff: them = both teams, yes? 23:23 <+marga> Ganneff: you've been to both places, would you agree that work areas are the same? 23:23 <@Ganneff> aj: nah. i can rate SJJ higher than i would without meeting them. ie i lower the advantage of beeing involved in debian a bit. 23:23 * h01ger wonders what Maulkin noted from moray. 23:23 <@Ganneff> aj: but keeping a slight advantage for edi 23:23 <+Sledge> right. Maulkin: next point please 23:24 <+Maulkin> 23:13 <+moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet 23:24 <+aj> the argument for SJJ slight was that the venue was 24/7 and had video/server rooms 24/7; but since last meeting the edi team seem to have confirmed both those are available in EDI too 23:24 <@Ganneff> for the work areas - similar space. hotel has some more comfort, but space is ok both sides. 23:24 <+Maulkin> Ok... is that now equal, or what? 23:24 * h01ger thinks so 23:24 * marga nods. 23:25 <+Maulkin> no objections received 23:25 <+Maulkin> 5 EDI slight * 23:25 <+Maulkin> objections from SJJ 23:25 <+marga> I'd say... EDI very slight. 23:25 <@Ganneff> edi has more pubs/restaurants *neaer* sjj has something near, but due to edi beeing in the city center there are naturally more. 23:26 <+marga> But they can both provide what we would need. 23:26 <+aj> aiui they have 24/7 food available, and alternative food available locally; but EDI has morechoices available locally for longer hours 23:26 <+bdale> cheap taxis in SJJ might mitigate that, but within walking distance is a powerful differentiator 23:26 <+Maulkin> So is slight "right"? 23:26 <@h01ger> yes 23:26 <+bdale> from what I know, EDI slight seems right 23:26 <+aj> yes 23:27 <+Sledge> looks like 23:27 <+Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong 23:27 <@Ganneff> si 23:27 <+Maulkin> Objectiosn from a few people 23:27 * h01ger nods 23:27 <@Ganneff> the hotel is an advantage here. 23:27 <+Maulkin> 23:17 <@h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?! 23:27 <+Maulkin> 23:17 <+moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6 23:27 <@Ganneff> strong due to the 4-star hotel 23:28 <@Ganneff> and everything in one place. 23:28 <+Maulkin> So the proposal is slight, instead of strong. 23:28 * h01ger nods - must have mistyped that one 23:28 <@Ganneff> edi has hostels. 23:28 <@Ganneff> so strong is ok in this point imo. 23:28 <+Maulkin> Ok... I'll leave it as strong, agreed? 23:28 <@Ganneff> yes 23:28 <+marga> yes 23:28 <+Maulkin> Lat point! :) 23:28 <+aj> i think strong in the same way travel for edi is strong -- a hostel is acceptable, but a hotel is better, just as we could get to sjj, but it'll be more conveinent to get to edi 23:28 * Sledge nods aj 23:28 <+Sledge> Maulkin: go go go! 23:28 * h01ger ment 8 i think 23:29 <+Maulkin> yes 23:29 <+Maulkin> 8 EDI strong 23:29 <+Maulkin> but not contested! 23:29 <+Maulkin> So! 23:29 <+Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish) * 23:29 <+Maulkin> Is that Ok with everyone? 23:29 <+aj> yes 23:29 <@Ganneff> we had that. make the summary. 23:29 <+Maulkin> Right, the final (non ==) list is: 23:29 <+Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish) 23:29 <+Maulkin> 3 SJJ slight 23:29 <+Maulkin> 4 EDI slight 23:29 <+Maulkin> 5 EDI slight 23:29 <+Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong 23:29 <+Maulkin> 8 EDI strong 23:30 <+Maulkin> Enjoy. 23:30 <+aj> hrm? i thought 3 became a draw? 23:30 * h01ger nods aj 23:30 <+Maulkin> (This is weighted, so don't add up stongs/weaks :P) 23:31 <+Maulkin> sorry. 23:31 <+Maulkin> 2 EDI strong(ish) 23:31 <+Maulkin> 4 EDI slight 23:31 <+Maulkin> 5 EDI slight 23:31 <+Maulkin> 6 SJJ strong 23:31 <+Maulkin> 8 EDI strong 23:32 <+aj> 1,3,7,9 draw 23:32 <+Maulkin> yes 23:32 <+Maulkin> The rest dreaw 23:32 <+Maulkin> *draw 23:33 <+Sledge> right 23:33 <+Sledge> decision 23:33 <+Maulkin> Yes 23:34 <+Maulkin> Someone from orga make a motion please. 23:34 * Sledge nods 23:34 * h01ger waves 23:34 * Maulkin stabs 23:34 * bdale waits patiently 23:34 <+marga> I wonder what we are waiting for 23:34 <@h01ger> isnt it obvious? 23:34 <+bdale> aj 23:35 <@h01ger> so, its edinburgh. now flame me to death. 23:35 <+Maulkin> Ok. 23:35 <+moray> did aj fall asleep again? 23:35 <+Maulkin> Objections form orga? 23:35 <+aj> i wish 23:35 <+Maulkin> *from 23:35 * h01ger has dinner atm 23:35 <+vedran_sjj> I'd like to use this intermission to congratulate Maulkin for excellent leading of this meeting 23:35 <+sapphire_sjj> no gwlof, no stockholm 23:36 <+aj> likewise 23:36 <+Maulkin> It's not over yet... 23:36 <+Maulkin> :) 23:36 <@Ganneff> vedran_sjj: you know that most was done by sledge and maulkin, not Maulkin alone? 23:36 <+Maulkin> But thank you vedran_sjj :) 23:36 <+aj> thanks also to both teams for sticking around and being very helpful (and being patient with my napping) 23:36 <+Maulkin> Yes, Sledge++ 23:36 <+marga> vedran_sjj: likewis, I'd like to congratulate you on a great representation from Sarajevo. 23:36 <+vedran_sjj> thanks marga 23:37 <+Maulkin> That was far too close. 23:37 <+Sledge> vedran_sjj and moray: thanks for clear bids and responses to questions tonight 23:37 <+Maulkin> Can we have two debconfs a year? ::) 23:37 * Sledge stabs Maulkin 23:37 * Sledge stabs Maulkin again, just in case the first wasn't enough 23:37 * h01ger also really says thanks+kudos to both teams, you're presentations and preparations have been real good 23:37 <+Maulkin> Aww! 23:38 <@Ganneff> so. now -team has to sort out itself i think. but probably tomorrow... 23:38 <+aj> so shall we (a) schedule a time to discuss how we do this in future now this decision's out of the way and we don't have any active bids; and (b) can i talk to the sjj guys about stuff sometime too (in english :)? 23:38 <@h01ger> (damn, maybe i should have skipped that politician like "both teams" here. but i mean it.. and would have said it in any case) 23:38 * Sledge nods aj 23:38 <@Ganneff> aj: a.) no. that should be done at running debconf. 23:38 <+moray> aj: can someone post an 'official' decision 23:38 <+Sledge> h01ger: do you really want to have the orga team discussion now? 23:39 <@Ganneff> aj: by kicking both teams into a room and loosing the key until they have one location only. 23:39 <+vedran_sjj> aj: b) sure! we'll be around 23:39 <+Sledge> Maulkin: thanks for doing the minuting and pri tallying, I'll take it back now if you want to run 23:39 <+Maulkin> Sledge: Can you post a decision to debconf-annouce? 23:39 <+aj> Ganneff: that's what needs to be discussed 23:39 <@h01ger> Sledge, no. as much as i hate to postpone it again or rather to have yet another dc meeting soon... i dont think now would be any good 23:39 <+marga> Ganneff: we might _try_ that on IRC, if we manage to be friendly enough. 23:39 <+aj> Sledge: yes please do 23:39 <+Sledge> h01ger: ok, cool 23:39 <+bdale> it has been approximately 4 hours since this meeting started. I strongly suggest everyone get food and sleep before trying to decide anything else of substance! 23:39 * marga now with her DC8-candidate hat. 23:39 <+Sledge> ok, I'll post an announcement tonight 23:39 <+Maulkin> oh yeah 23:39 <@h01ger> Ganneff, no. not next debconf. i dont wanna continue now. remember Tolimar? 23:40 <@h01ger> (s mail) 23:40 <@Ganneff> h01ger: see my comment at 00:38:12 23:40 <+Maulkin> ** minutes - see about 2000 lines of backlog and try and condense it. I'm going to have to do this in SPI if I run for secretary, aren't I? 23:40 <@Ganneff> Sledge: if you want debconf-announce you need me. 23:40 <+aj> Maulkin: yes 23:40 * h01ger greps 23:40 <+aj> meeting over, demoderate? 23:40 <+Sledge> Ganneff: ok, cool - let's organise that later 23:40 * Sledge nods aj 23:40 * Maulkin nods 23:40 <+Sledge> meeting closed