stockholmi would support sleges moderation
Sledgeone at a time, PLEASE
stockholm(what about those in the checklist, that we agreed on?)
Sledgewhat precisely are the priorities that we should be using in deciding?
Sledgestockholm: good point
vedran_sjjI basically agree with bdales priority list
* h01ger really thinks about following his proposal about +m and voice for the team and local leaders..
Sledgehas everybody ready bdale's list?
Maulkin** minutes Sledge asks for priorities that we should be using in deciding the location for debconf.
slefWhere's bdale's list?
Sledgeh01ger: please go ahead and do that
Maulkinslef: On the -team mailing list
* h01ger explains to the others that Maulkin just toke a note for the minutes
* GyrosGeier opens #debconf-team-discuss
* h01ger is happy about GyrosGeier and does as planned
Jon_ukmarga: thanks
margaI think Bdale's priorities are quite alright.
@Sledgeany objections to any of those items?
+morayI haven't thought deeply about the ordering, but I felt I agreed with bdale's list when I read it
@Sledgeanythings that should be added?
+stockholmthe priorities are in a differnet form at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckListhttp://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList
+stockholmsorry, bad paste
* h01ger wonders who else
+stockholmfont size indicates the importance
+margaI think it lacks something about accessibility, but the rest really seems to reflect my thoughts... Although I'd probably go with a different order.
@h01gervedran_sjj asked me to give him voice in case sapphire_sjj has connectifity probs
+marga<slef> there's nothing about orga on that list, whereas it seems the problems debconf has worst today are orga
+bdaleh01ger: Sledge should have voice?
@h01gersorry Sledge, i thought i gave it to you first
+Sledgeh01ger: fine
+Sledgemarga: do you mean central orga, or local orga?
+margaIt was slef, but I think he means local.
+bdalemarga: when I wrote that email, I was trying to "stay above" what I knew of the issues in the orga team, and I certainly don't know all of the issues in the team regardless
* h01ger didnt see Tolimar coming back
+Sledgemarga: ah, ok
+Sledgeok, that's a fair enough addition
+margaSo, having a strong, mature, experienced local team is a priority.  An important one.
+bdaleI easily agree with that
+Sledgeok, where does it fit in the list?
+bdaleI'd place it after affordable and the trappings of a good working environment, but ahead of almost everything else
+Sledgethat matches my own idea; anybody else?
@gwolfOk, so we go back to the beginning :-/ Sorry, I cannot skip the point that I'm angry - we are going over the same points over and over!
* Maulkin agrees
@Ganneffyes. its useless
@gwolfOrdering again the priorities is useless.
+Maulkin(with bdale's point)
@gwolfWe have went over them a hundred times.
@Ganneffthats what you get when you let those people run it.
+margaOk.  Priorities done.
+margaLet's move on.
+stockholmGanneff: dont do this, it does not help currently
+Sledgeok, it seems we're happy enough with the ordering
+Sledgewhich makes the priorities:
@h01gerthe meeting ordering ?
+Sledge        "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
+Sledge        good working spaces
+Sledge       strong, mature, experienced local team
+Sledge        excellant network connectivity
+Sledge        quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
+Sledge        suitabile housing in close proximity
+Sledge        presentation facilities
+Sledge        travel logistics
+Sledgedoes that work for people?
+stockholmi would move up the local team, actuallz.
+Sledgestockholm: to which position?
+margaaccesibility is soft of missing, although it's more like a general thing.
+bdalestockholm: still after affordable, or before?
* h01ger thinks the whole debconf-orga-lead topic should be moved up. or at least be present. maybe its good to have it in the end, or maybe not
+Maulkinmarga: I think that can be derived from the otehr items :)
+bdalemarga: at least in my part of the world, it is mostly taken as a given part of the context.  but I am certainly perfectly ok with it being an explicit priority.
* h01ger thinks bith venues are sufficiently accessible. Ganneff, otavio (is not here..) ?
@gwolfbdale: This time we failed in that regard because it was not such a given :)
+Sledgeok, let's add accessibility to make it clear
+bdalemarga: however, in practical terms, it doesn't look like accessibility is a significant differentiator between the two proposals for dc7
+bdalegwolf: good point
@Ganneffh01ger: SJJ has advantages
+margabdale: no, I know.
@Ganneffh01ger: but EDI also, depends where you look
@Ganneffboth are good
+Sledgeaccessibility priority level?
@h01gerGanneff, ok. but do we need this as a topic?
@gwolfthey are quite leveled, so.. :)
@Ganneffboth are fine vor debconf.
+stockholmi would give it level 7 or so
+stockholmbut in this caes it does not matter
+bdaleSledge: it seems like the important thing is for it to be on the list so it isn't forgotten, not so much where it is on the list
+Sledgeok, let's just add it to the list
@h01geris this thetopic list or the priorities?
+MaulkinDoes this need quickly wiki-ing?
@h01gerMaulkin, please do create a topic wiki page
+bdaleh01ger: the priorities.  I think the /topic is fine
+Sledgelist by my reckoning is now:
+Sledge        "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
+Sledge    strong, mature, experienced local team
+Sledge        good working spaces
+Sledge        excellant network connectivity
+Sledge        quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
+Sledge        suitabile housing in close proximity
+Sledge        presentation facilities
+Sledge        travel logistics
+Sledge    accessibility
+Sledgeanything more/less?
@h01gerbdale, the topics of this meeting i ment. not the /topic :)
@h01gerso this is priorities?
+stockholmwhat about continuity?
+stockholmi think it is important for a complex thing like debconf
+Sledgestockholm: is that actually a separate priority, or just part of the background organisation?
+Tolimarstockholm: what do you mean by "continuity"?  (I know what the word means, but in this context of venue decission I don't understand what you mean.)
+stockholmSledge: i think it should be considered
+stockholmTolimar: if you change too many factors at once in a conplex system you certainly have a uncontroled state.
+margastockholm: I think we are stating the priorities about choosing a location, not about what the team has to do better.
+Tolimarstockholm: Ah, okay.  Thanks.
+stockholmTolimar: continuity means that it location is not radically different to everthing before, which invalidates what we know how a debconf works
+aj(so, apparently it took me 1h30 to realise that alarm meant "wake up"... 4:30am meetings are teh suck)
+bdalestockholm: hrm.  we've had some pretty large differences in the venues to date, though, haven't we?
* h01ger waves to aj - good morning :)
+bdaleaj: caffeine is good
+Maulkin** minutes a list of priorites exists at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
@h01geraj, we have a list of priorities for choosing the venue, but no real agenda for this meeting.
+moraycan we pause a couple of minutes for aj to read scrollback and chime in?
+stockholmbdale: actually they were similar to some degree.
@gwolfaj: All my respect for coming out of bed that early :)
* h01ger says yes to moray
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
+bdalestockholm: true enough
+Maulkin** minutes - general - both venues seem approx equal in accessability fronts, it: both acceptable.
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gerpause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well
@h01gernuff said?
+margaPause, but could we please be told what's going to follow, please?
@h01geror do i need to take voices away? :)
@h01germarga, discussing the agenda of this meeting?!
+stockholmwill aj beep once he is done?
@h01ger19:20 is bit enough?
@h01gerbeep even
+stockholmvisual bell.
+ajxxx ?
+morayaj: do you have anything to say about your intentions for this meeting, etc., before it re-starts?
+margaSo, the next step is compare the venues according to the priority list?
@h01ger.oO( oh well... me thinks other people might be afk, but... it started already )
* h01ger is ok with it
+margah01ger: I'm just asking.
@h01germarga, np
@h01geraj, please let us come up with an agenda first
+ajokay, so we still have UK and SJJ people around right?
+Maulkinaj: Yes
+aji see moray (but no moray_uk...)
@h01geraj, so two topics like in your mail or what?
+ajso, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were?
+bdaleoops, f'ing mouse
+Sledgebdale: doh! :-)
+vedran_sjjok should I go?
@h01geraj, agenda first. otherwise... its stupid
* h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda
* h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda
+ajmoray, sapphire_sjj: are you happy to do that in a few minutes?
+sapphire_sjjaj, vedran_sjj will be our speaker
+stockholmwill there be a "native speaker" bonus?
+Sledgesapphire_sjj: ok, cool
@h01geraj, if you take over, please say so, dont just do it :(
* h01ger shuts up
+ajsapphire_sjj: oh, okay, thanks
+ajvedran_sjj, moray: are you happy to do that in a few minutes?
+Maulkin** minutes <+aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were?
+Maulkin** minutes vedran_sjj and moray representing
+stockholmwhy is this better then comparing according priorities?
+margaI think it might be interesting, but are we doing the comparison against priorities or not?
@gwolfbecause it takes longer and gets us back to the same points again?
+bdaleif the two teams are willing and are honest about it, we could learn something about each proposal
+stockholmaj: i believe there might be good reasons. i just dont see them yet
* h01ger wanted to suggest stockholm and gwolf to follow the agenda. so i think i will tell aj again to first discuss the agenda of this meeting and the procedure :) (so we then can make offtopic people quiet ;)
+stockholmaj: if you tell us how you imagine how this can work out well this way we might see the advantage
+ajsorry, i need to know if moray/someone from EDI's willing to do the above
+morayaj: yes, I was waiting for the interruption to be over
+stockholmwho is chair now?
* Sledge will continue on
+Sledgeagenda item 3 - teams compare their bids
* h01ger thinks we either go with the agenda from ajs mail or the one we started here while he was asleep. chairs please go. i dont chair anymore
+Sledgepoint out strengths of the opposing bid, and weaknesses in their own
+Sledges/item 2/item 3/, sorry
+Sledges/item 3/item 2/, sorry
* Sledge screams at his poor faiing fingers
+ajf4f18f855ac7240b5e4ebb7c5771e8e74f563682; Sledge: heads or tails?
+ajecho 'heads = sarajevo goes first' | sha1sum
+Sledgelater items:
+Sledge_limited_ questions for the 2 teams
+Sledge(item 3)
+vedran_sjjok I'd like to do EDI's strengths and SJJ weakness at the same time
+vedran_sjjis it ok?
+ajsounds fair; moray?
+morayI'm not sure what the question is precisely, but seems fine
+Sledgeitem 4: weigh up bids against priorities
+Sledgeitem 5: ***decision***
+Sledgepeople happy with that agenda?
+ajvedran_sjj: okay, 5m on strengths; 5m on weaknesses once sledge says okay; then same for edi team (in reverse), then we'll move on to clarifications from everyone
@h01gerSledge, aj: thats it? no orga-team topic?
* Maulkin suggests 4a: comments from orga-team
@h01ger(sorry for reacting so late)
+MaulkinFairly stongly.
+ajvedran_sjj: the aim at this point is for you guys to demonstrate you know what you're talking about and are able to analyse your own problems as well as just advocate for your bid
+SledgeMaulkin: yup, add that
+MaulkinThis need wiki-ing?
+Sledgeanything else for agenda?
+ajclarifications from everyone includes from the orga team
@h01gerSledge, yes. see above. orgateam/delegates
@h01gerthis somewhat is crashed atm
* h01ger is sorry to be honest. no, i'm not :)
+Sledgeothers: do we want to discuss orga-team in this meeting?
+stockholmh01ger: i dont follow?
+stockholmh01ger: can you explain?
@gwolfstockholm: We are in a crisis moment for the team
@h01gerstockholm, see gwolf.
@gwolfAnd that's something quite objective :)
+margaPlease, guys, this is off-topic right now. vedran_sjj I hope you are preparing your statement.
+vedran_sjjyes i'm ready
@h01germarga, no. Tolimar has left :( you just want to continue??
+Sledgeh01ger: sorry, unless somebody else agrees with you we'll leave that discussion until later
+margah01ger: not really, but I don't want to discuss this right now.
@h01ger(to give one example why i think this is important as well. happily after the venue decision...)
+Sledgeh01ger: ok, cool
+Sledgevedran_sjj: ready to go?
+margavedran_sjj: ok, please go ahead?
@h01gerSledge, but put it on the agenda!
+MaulkinAgenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings
+Sledgeh01ger: ok, 6: orga team discussion
+Sledgevedran_sjj: 5 minutes
+vedran_sjj1. SJJ has no budget flights... while EDI has a lot of budget flights
+vedran_sjjobviously this presents a problem for non-sponsored atendees
+vedran_sjjmaking it more expensive and complicated to visit SJJ
* h01ger missed the topic orgateam in the agenda and just added it
+vedran_sjj(as I said earlier, I'm doing strengths/weaknesses at the same time)
+vedran_sjj(cause I don't want to just repeat the same stuff...)
+vedran_sjjwe spent a lot of energy finding a solution to this problem
+vedran_sjjwe can make it smaller, but now dissapear completely
+ajjust problems, we don't need solutions too :)
+vedran_sjjI say non-sponsored, because sponsorship is in the spreadsheet
+vedran_sjj2. EDI has a well-known debian community
+vedran_sjjthey have several DDs on their team
+vedran_sjjwhile our team is a strong general Linux community but less involved with Debian
+vedran_sjjthough I see this as an opportunity to convert this community to Debian :)
+vedran_sjjsome may disagree...
+vedran_sjj3. SJJ might be less interesting to corporate sponsorship
+aj(converting the community to debian would be a strength of the bid, don't cheat :)
+vedran_sjjok sorry
+vedran_sjjwe had that problem (no 3) when talking about another prospective FOSS conference
+aj(half time)
+vedran_sjj4. and I'd like to add (some from my team disagree strongly...) the cultural issues
+Sledgeby my account that's 5 minutes
+vedran_sjjI understand some DC attendees might have issues with SJJ
+Sledgevedran_sjj: please finish 4.
+Sledgethen we move on
+vedran_sjj-- as I said I'm doing both at the same time
+aj(5m for weaknesses SJJ, 5m for strengths EDI = 10m all up)
+vedran_sjjcan't we join the two half-times?
+Sledgecrap, sorry
* Sledge hits himself
+vedran_sjjas I would basically be repeating myself
+ajwhich cultural issues do you see still being a problem for sjj potentially?
+vedran_sjjpoint 4:
+vedran_sjjthis is really very subjective
+vedran_sjjwe tried to remove such issues (even have a wiki on that)
+vedran_sjjbut I think some people will just never change their opinion no matter what we do
+vedran_sjjthe issue is prejudice and not the actual state
+vedran_sjjof things
+ajokay, next one?
+vedran_sjjto repeat EDIs strenghts: EDI airport, more attractive to sponsors etc.
+vedran_sjjwell thats it, we'll be open for questions if needed
+Sledgeswap to EDI?
+vedran_sjjyou can swap, I'm finished
+ajsince there's a minute left; would you go to EDI if they had dc7 and you could?
+vedran_sjjyes why not
+vedran_sjji would go
+vedran_sjjnothing else :)
+bdaleaj: am I correct that you'd like us to hold comments until after EDI's turn?
+Maulkin** minutes see above for sjj positives/negatives bit.
+Sledgebdale: correct
+Sledgelet's move on to EDI
+ajbdale: yes; we'll let both teams bullet point any additional strengths they think they have then
+Sledgemoray: are you ready?
* bdale agrees
+moraySledge: you want me to start on Sarajevo strengths?
+Sledgeyes please
+ajweaknesses for edi, strengths for sjj; either order
+Sledgemoray: 10 mins, go!
+morayI think the main advantage for Sarajevo over Edinburgh is that it's a cheaper city for food/accommodation
+morayi.e. either of the same quality is definitely cheaper in Sarajevo than Edinburgh
+moray(2) The Bosnians hope that they'll create some more interest in free software by having the conference there
+moray(3) It's probably a more 'exotic' location (a lot of people seem to find the UK a boring idea ;)
+moray(4) I know that a lot of people prefer the 'self-contained' venue they're proposing
+morayok, can I go on our weaknesses?
+ajgo ahead
+moray(1) We're competing with a lot of other events in Edinburgh to get venues/accommodation, especially since we're proposing a venue right in the middle of the city
+morayThe obviously drives up prices for facilities, and it also means things need to be booked early
+moray(3) Edinburgh is a more expensive city than Sarajevo, though this is mitigated because we'd be right in the centre (zero travel costs once you're there), and all the city-run tourist things are free
+aj(2) ?
+morayaj: er, the one without a number was 2 in my mind ;)
+morayWeather - when I visited Sarajevo, it was consistently bright and mid-30s
+moraywhile I've already explained that Edinburgh isn't wet compared to Glasgow, people *are* likely to see some rain while they're here ;)
+morayI think that's me done
+aj(i think we can assume we're not holding dc in glasgow :)
+Maulkin** minutes - see above for Edi strengths and weaknesses
+Sledgemoray: nothing further to add?
+ajvedran_sjj: ok, moray had a chance to think while you were talking, did you think of anything you wanted to add while moray was?
+morayoh, one more, someone implies people may be worried about kilts or haggis or bagpipes ;)
+vedran_sjjnothing more from sjj
+bdalemoray: they're only worried that I'll be in a tie-dyed kilt all week... ;-)
* Sledge shudders at that image
+vedran_sjjaj: nothing more, we can go on
+Maulkin** minutes Questions and comments
+Maulkin(I think)
+ajvedran_sjj: okay, cheap food, local interest, exotic locale, self-contained venue; did you have any other strengths for sjj you wanted to remind people of very briefly?
+vedran_sjjok, public transport in sjj is very cheap
+stockholmcomments about the sponsors thing:
+ajstockholm: please wait
+vedran_sjjwe have a top quality venue
+vedran_sjja four star hotel
+vedran_sjjeverything under one roof, 24/7
+ajthat one's mentioned (self contained venue)
+vedran_sjjI'd like to add 24/7 availability
@gwolfaj: Note the 24/7 thing
+vedran_sjjwe have an already established Internet link + prospective donors for wireless
+vedran_sjjInternet in rooms
+margavedran_sjj: that's a promise, not a fact, right?
+vedran_sjjalso we have server & video rooms available
+ajmarga: questions later
+vedran_sjjmarga: thats a fact, we have confirmation from ISP
+margavedran_sjj: I meant the "Internet in rooms" part.
+Sledgeok, vedran_sjj: done?
+vedran_sjjand one more thing: IMHO we have quite good accessibility support
* gwolf has to interrupt a second - I'm leaving in under five minutes
+vedran_sjjmarga: that also is confirmed
@gwolfI'll leave a couple of comments in the list. Please take them into account when doing the voting.
+ajmoray: since i forgot earlier; if dc7 were in sjj, would you be going?
* gwolf ceases to interrupt
+Maulkingwolf: Or you can /msg me them and I'll relay
@gwolfMaulkin: So be it.
+morayaj: well, I'd rather answer about the whole team - I'm sure that there will be a good representation from our UK bid team, wherever it is
+Sledgeok, that's fair enough
+Maulkin** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for sjj
+ajmoray: any additional strengths of edi you'd like to mentioned, other than cheap fligths, debian community, corporate sponsors?
+Sledgemoray: quick summary of EDI bid strengths?
+morayyup ...
+moraythe bid team has a lot of experience of past debconfs, as well as other free software events and academic conferences, so I think we have a lot of experience between us to work to organise a good event
+moraywe're proposing debconf in a very central location, so we have all the amenities of the city right on our doorstep
+moraythe city as a whole is accessible, with e.g. the taxis required to be able to transport wheelchairs, as well as wheelchair accessible buses
+moraythe venues are flexible about network rearranging/mess etc.
+moraythere's lots of breakout space in the venue as well as outside
+morayEdinburgh's a major network hub, we *might* be able to negotiate 1Gb/s from the venue, but it's certainly easy to get a nice (if slower than that) connection from one of our sponsor ISPs
+Sledgeok; done?
+moraythe city is well-connected besides flights, btw, people from Europe can also take trains and ferries if they want to avoid killing the earth so fast
+moraySledge: yeah, I should stop
+Sledgeok, done
+Sledgelet's move on
+ajvedran_sjj: does that summary from moray of edi strengths sound fair?
+Maulkin** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for edi
+vedran_sjjI'd like to add that we have some of the same things
* gwolf waves goodbye. Maulkin has my final comments. I'll stay logged in to get the backlog later.
+Sledgettfn gwolf
+vedran_sjjbreakout space, network flexibility, we also have a minibus for transportation of disabled persons
+Maulkin** minutes dups from SJJ to above list
+ajmoray: happy to move on now too?
+vedran_sjjyeah I said what I meant to say
+morayaj: I think we want to avoid just turning into discussion of specific points here, so definitely
+Sledge(brief) questions for the teams
+stockholmmust go to bed soon
+MaulkinSledge: I need a small section in (4) for gwolf's comments
+MaulkinAre we taking questions from -discuss?
+SledgeMaulkin: no problem
+ajoh, i guess we are
+MaulkinCaus eI can relay
+Sledgeplease do so
+Sledge10 minutes for questions, we'll be ruthless about moving on
+stockholmshould i comment about the sponsorship later?
+Maulkinstockholm: Yeah...
+MaulkinI think
+margavedran_sjj: if DC7 is in SJJ, who will be the local-team leader and how will that work?
+vedran_sjjsapphire will be the leader, but our team on democratic principles
+vedran_sjjour team WORKS on democratic principles
+ajso i believe HP at least are committed to sponsoring debconf independent of the venue, as long as the conference is effective at improving debian; i think that's worth noting explicitly, since sjj were concerned it might be a weakness for them
+vedran_sjjthere will be at least three deputees
+vedran_sjjAmar, Amila and myself
+Sledgemarga: answered for you?
+margaSledge: I guess.  Just one more thing, who would be communicating with the orga team?
+vedran_sjjall four of us
* h01ger hopes they will be(come) part of the orga team ;)
+Sledgeok - next question please
+MaulkinBoth teams: Why do you want to host debconf?
+morayI'll go?
+vedran_sjjmoray: you first now :)
+ajboth go, it's irc; but be brief :)
+moray'to make Debian better' - or, more specifically, because we're really enjoyed previous debconfs and want to contribute something back
+Sledgeok - vedran_sjj??
+vedran_sjjwe have a strong Linux community, with this I believe that we would push that com. towards Debian
+Sledgeok; next Q
+aj"com." ?
+MaulkinSomething coming from -discuss
+stockholmi have a question for for edinburgh: what options did you explore for budget food? did you investigate different places like the mosque, to combine both price and variety?
+moraySledge: should I answer that now?
+stockholmsomething like indish on fridays, pasta on mondays, haggis on sat... (c:
+Sledgemoray: please, yes
+bdaleI need to leave to fetch my son from camp, back in 20 mins or so, will stay logged in to read scrollback on my return
+ajSledge: last round of questions?
+moraythe mosque kitchen is still an available option.  the catering option at Teviot (for example) is a flexible canteen, and is much cheaper than other external caterers we've investigated.  really the best solution depends on how much money the organising team overall decides to devote to food.  the precise details on food can be organised much closer to the event than the main venue booking
+Sledgeaj: one more Q after moray's answer
+morayI can give more detail, but I guess that's enough?
+margaThis is a comment, and a follow-up question.  After the experience in MEX we've learned to distrust things that are promised.  So it would be nice that whenever stating a situation you would state if it's an actual fact, a fact that is confirmed to happen, or just an informal promise... So, both teams, do you have a 'Plan B' for things that were promised but haven't happened yet?
* Maulkin has 3... questions (all short)
+SledgeSJJ first?
+marga(sorry if I rushed).
+MaulkinFrom (-discuss)
* Sledge tickles marga for diving in
+vedran_sjjmarga: please be more exact
+ajto clarify, i think marga means promised by sponsors, not by the local team
+margavedran_sjj: like network in the rooms, or that sort of stuff, which is not there yet.
+vedran_sjjmarga: for ISP, we discussed with their manager and they said that we will have an official "letter of intent" but sadly their marketing guy was out of town
+Sledgemoray: please have your answer ready too
+vedran_sjjnetwork in rooms - there is infrastructure, they just need a few switches to hook it up
+vedran_sjjthey have Cat5 in the rooms
+vedran_sjjso I guess plan B is: we will provide the switches ;)
+Sledgevedran_sjj: ok, done?
@h01gervedran_sjj, for visas at the airport?
+vedran_sjjmost other stuff I can think of is promised to be free, but at worst we will pay for it
+Sledgemoray: EDI response?
+morayI don't think we're relying on anything that isn't already in place.  there's still the question of negotations on facilities falling through before contracts are signed, etc. - I don't think our venues are fly-by-night like that, but this is also why we've been keeping a number of venue options open to get the best deal while we negotiate
+moraynothing we've asked for from the venues is 'unusual' for them, so I don't foresee problems
+stockholmwhat about if the rooms are not 24/7 in edi?
+vedran_sjjh01ger: we have a promise from Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of B&H and we also have confirmation from other similar venues that they have experience with this
+moraystockholm: we now have both the ECA and Teviot offering 24/7
+vedran_sjjh01ger: thats pretty much as good as it gets....
+stockholmmoray: ah, thanks
+moraystockholm: if we didn't have that, we do also have a backup option of another space we could use at night nearby
+MaulkinMy questions from -discuss?
+stockholmmoray: good
@h01gervedran_sjj, nods - but you know gwolf also had promises from the bureucrazy...
+Sledgeas Maulkin has a couple of questions from -discuss, please dive in QUICKLY
+ajSledge: discussing each teams alternatives to running dc7 after maulkin?
+Maulkin"we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking"
+Sledgeaj: can do
+MaulkinCrap. Ignore that
+Maulkin"both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?"
+vedran_sjjh01ger: personally I trust the other organizations that organized similar events
+aj(2009; 2008 will be on a different continent apparently)
+Sledgewhat's the Q?
+morayplease make clear which questions we're meant to answer, and which are noise, yes ;)
+MaulkinBith teams: "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?"
+SledgeSJJ: ??
+stockholm(isnt that question rather hypothetical, since it is far in the future?)
+vedran_sjjwe will bid on 2009 but I doubt that we will get the same prices...
+SledgeEDI: ??
+MaulkinI think the response I'm seeing elsewhere is:
+morayI think some people will be 'burnt out' for another DebConf bid after the length of time that's led up to this one; also at points in this process it's been implied that the UK is simply too expensive a country, and if prices are unlikely to fall significantly.  however, we do have people on the team who would be expect to be interested in bidding again in 2009 if it doesn't happen this year
+MaulkinAhh, food.
+SledgeMaulkin: next Q please
+Maulkin"we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking / is there food or restarants generally around the place?"
+Maulkin(That's the last from -discuss)
+morayMaulkin: do you mean s/we can/can we/?
+Maulkinyes, can we
+SledgeEDI: ??
* h01ger thinks the uk is cheaper than .no and .fi - isnt it?
+morayh01ger: yes
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: we can get food 24/7
+ajvedran_sjj: from where? the hotel or surrounding shops or...?
+morayMaulkin: yes, we're right in the middle of the city
+vedran_sjjaj: from hotel and the nearby restaurant (very cheap)
+margamoray: do the pubs close?
+morayMaulkin: a lot of bars/restaurants nearby, and fast food places nearby for late night
+vedran_sjjaj: though the restaurant is not 24/7 :)
+moraymarga: yes, at different times from each other
+MaulkinTime for one more Q?
+Sledgequestions done I think
+SledgeMaulkin: no, too late
+Maulkinok, ta
+Sledgetime to move on
+Sledgeaj: ??
+ajokay, alternatives now?
+Sledgeyup - ask away
+Maulkin** minutes: questions and answers section above
+ajso, if the other team hosts the conference, what will your team end up doing? helping out remotely as part of the orga team; running something else? what ideas do people have? people from -discuss might want to chime in to, i don't know if we want to demoderate briefly
+aji'd say max 15m for this at this point?
+Maulkinaj: No, I can relay
+Sledgeyes, please relay to keep things sane
+stockholmi need to go to be.
+vedran_sjjaj: some team members will help out
+Maulkinstockholm: /msg me with any commenst you want me to relay
+ajone possibility i see for sarajevo is having a regional miniconference, or a regional "free software" conference -- both those have been quite successful in australia
* Maulkin swaps hats around
+MaulkinI'll carry on being part of the orga team no matter who gets it.
* Maulkin re-hats
+aj06:36 <weasel> aj: is this to imply that DebConf will be in EDI?
+ajto answer that on channel, actually
+ajno, definitely not -- it does imply i'd like to see a conference in sjj next year either way though
+morayMaulkin: also from Edinburgh we have e.g. someone interested in helping with video team stuff in SJJ, Paul Sladen who says he'd attend and sleep lots ;)
+moray(er, s/someone interested/Mark Brown interested/)
+Sledgesladen will sleep lots wherever, I can attest to that :-)
+aj06:36 <slef> is either venue short of regional conferences already?
+ajedi, sjj; are there other local conferences you can go to if dc isn't local?
+vedran_sjjaj: there are no other confs
+morayaj: I think that depends what you mean by 'local'; there do tend to be Debian *social* events in the UK, though mostly down in the south of England, while it's quite easy to get from Edinburgh to events on the continent
+moray(e.g. KDE, GNOME conferences)
+marga(for those not familiar with UK slang, 'the continent' = 'the rest of Europe that's not the UK').
+ajvedran_sjj: is it difficult for bosnians to get to KDE, GNOME etc conferences that moray mentions? i guess due to travel costs?
+vedran_sjjaj: yes, there are visa issues and the general financial issues
+vedran_sjjaj: though I'm wandering about the purpose of this line of questions
+MaulkinOtehrs on -discuss are wondering too
+vedran_sjjs/wandering/wondering/ sorry
+Sledgeaj: ??
+ajdamn, and i thought i'd be the one asking the difficult questions
+ajokay, so this requires a little background
+ajin australia, we have an annual linux conference; it started in '99, missed a year, continued in 2001 and has been annual since then
+aji was on the organising team for it in 2002 (we had about 250-300 people), and have been more or less involved in most of them since then
+ajthe focus of the conference is basically "it's too hard to travel to europe for most of us to see all their cool talks, ditto america, so let's bring them out here"
+ajin 2002 we also started running a debian miniconf, which attracted about 100 people, mostly debian users rather than developers, and has continued ever year since too
+ajit's different to debconf, since it's more about talks and users than hacking and developers, but is quite interesting
+ajit just strikes me that bosnia/the balkans are in a similar situation, and maybe a similar solution would be interesting; i know a few people i've talked to who are in favour of edi for dc7, also think that a "linux.conf.balkans"  every year would be a fascinating event
+Sledgeaj: done?
+vedran_sjjaj: interesting idea, but it's a bit hard to think about that when we don't know if we will host DebConf or not
+Maulkinaj, would it not make sense to use a DebConf as a kick-off for an annual series?
+MaulkinFrom -discuss
+MaulkinQuick answer please :)
* Sledge nods Maulkin
+ajMaulkin: it could easily, the question is what would edi do then? i don't even have a guess for that
+SledgeI think we're wandering off, time to get back to the agenda
+MaulkinAll ok form -discuss.
+Sledgeorga team comments
+Sledgeitem 4
* Maulkin needs a little bit here from gwolf and stockholm
@Ganneffthen start
+Maulkin<stockholm> i asked sponsors if they would sponsor either debconf or sarajevo when asking for sponsorship last time around. and they consider both "europe" and would sponsor. e.g. the big providers in germany etc.
+margaI guess there's and EDI missing there.
+Maulkin21:00 <gwolf> As for the local teams, the EDI team looks more responsable/grown-up, and I must acknowledge their balance - even on looking on Sarajevo information when the other team could not answer something
+Maulkin21:02 <gwolf> The SJJ team looks very enthusiastic, and they (claim to - should we believe them? I do at least :) ) have experience on other non-Debconf conferences - Now, as for my experience here, no conference gets you ready for Debconf... But still :)
+Maulkin21:02 <gwolf> Anyway, I won't go anymore on the issue-per-issue thing
+Maulkin21:02 <gwolf> The amount of details we can work on for both sides is huge
+Maulkin21:03 <gwolf> Both venues have great installations, but I think the Terme hotel provides a more comfortable setting where we will be able to sit and work
+SledgeMaulkin: thanks
+Sledgeany other orga team comments please
+MaulkinOh, and for me, I'm staying out of particular discussions, due to potential bias.
@Ganneffmy opinion about this meeting is known, so i dont speak much more then when it comes to "decision".
+Sledgeanybody else?
+ajGanneff: can you summarise that to the list when it's convenient for the record, please?
+Maulkin<@mooch> Maulkin: nokia comment, please
+margaI don't have comments.
+MaulkinNo idea what that means though
+marga<mooch> nokia will probably not have a problem with the venue
+bdalemooch is primary point of contact for Nokia as a sponsor, I presume
+ajMaulkin: want me to take the heat for quoting this one? :)
+margaaj: I'll do it.
+Maulkinaj: Please, I can't as I have bias
+ajmarga, go ahead, i'd like to comment on it afterwards (too)
+Sledgeplease just post the comment
+margaIt is the opinion of several people (mooch is the one raising it at this moment), that should the conference happen in SJJ, Safir might not be the best person to lead the group since it needs a lot of cold blood and controled spirit not to break apart, and he has demonstrated to be too influenced by personal feelings and attacking attitude during the process.
+MaulkinThanks marga
+ajthe term "impulsive" maybe have appeared too; i'd just like to say that i've been very impressed by the excitement and enthusiasm of the sjj team, and while i think that has boiled over into taking offense unnecessarily now and then, it's that sort of passion that makes these sorts of conferences great
+Sledgeif we have no more orga comments, I'd like to move us on again
+MaulkinSledge: Checking -discuss now
* h01ger is not sure if he has something new to say
@Ganneffum. sjj didnt comment on that one point yet?
+ajotoh, actually running them tends to teach you hot to deal with those sorts of reactions, because you get so stressed out you have to learn one way or another
+vedran_sjjGanneff: what point exactly?
@Ganneffvedran_sjj: margas quote
+vedran_sjjGanneff: amar_sjj responded on -discuss
@Ganneffdifferent chan, not in minutes
+MaulkinI think that's all
@h01ger<amar_sjj> Maulkin: the bosnian team consists of 27 people. Safir initiated everything but the DebCof will be handled by the TEAM.
+Sledgeok, let's see that response and move on please
+vedran_sjjthe sjj team consists of 27 people. safir started everything but debconf will be handled by the TEAM
+MaulkinCan we move?
+vedran_sjjthanks h01ger
+Sledgeitem 5 by my count
+Maulkin** minutes above comments from orga
* h01ger looks at the agenda to see if he should say something now or later
* Maulkin nods
+Sledgeh01ger: shout now if you're going to
@Ganneffh01ger: you are orga, so talk
+Sledgeh01ger: ??
* h01ger thinks
* Sledge urges h01ger to think quickly :-)
@h01geri think i value the "strong, mature, experienced local team" EDI team, but must admit he has also been impressed by the SJJ team recently but still has doubts.
+Sledgethankyou, let's move on
@h01gerand me shuts up, for sake
+Sledge5: "weigh up bids against priorities"
+Maulkin** minutes see abouve for orga team comments, now weigh up bids against priorities"
+marga-> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList
+Sledgemarga: yup
+Sledgeright, let's get this organised
+Sledgewould orga people prefer to give their rankings against all the priorities at once, or shall we go through an item at a time?
+ajhow about we see if moray and vedran_sjj can agree on answers for each priority first?
+margaSledge: I don't know if ranking is important...
+MaulkinAgain, I'm abstaining this section.
+Sledgeaj: I think we've probably seen enough discussion of those
+margaAt least, we should discard those priorities which are pretty much the same for both venues.
+morayaj: I think that'll just turn into a fight about details and how you weigh up sub-points of each?
+ajsorry as in "both venues seems to be roughly equally affordable for sponsors" ?
+SledgeMaulkin: go ahead
+MaulkinSledge: state the 'item' and give an opinion on which is stronger or weaker or the same.
* h01ger has another comment, sorry. the SJJ team has not been involved in dc before (like stockholm demanded before dc6 and now waved this requirement) - OTOH people from the EDI team have and i think its good.
+MaulkinAsk for objections from local teams and orga team
+SledgeMaulkin: ok, I'll do that
+MaulkinThen move on
@Ganneff2,3,4,5,6,7,9 are too similar for both locations and can be kicked imo.
+Sledgeh01ger: you're too late
+Sledgeitem 1: cost
+aj(jftr: safir was involved as a volunteer at dc5 aiui)
+margaGanneff: I disagree.
+MaulkinCan we keep this short BTW?
+Sledgein terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
+margaGanneff: I think the points at stake are 1,2,4 and 8.
+Sledgedoes that sound a fair summary?
+vedran_sjjGanneff marga: I must object
+Sledgevedran_sjj: what's the problem?
+moraySledge: yes: prices on the ground vary depending exactly what we decide to pay for for attendees, but certainly things of the same quality will be cheaper in Sarajevo, whereas getting to Edinburgh gives budget airlines for Europeans, and significantly cheaper flights for others
+vedran_sjjI think all points need to be weighed
+Sledgevedran_sjj: ok, we'll weigh them all up
+Sledgevedran_sjj: are you happy with the summary of cost?
+vedran_sjjSledge: you mean the spreadsheet? yes we're fine with that
+margavedran_sjj: he means this: "<Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI"
+Sledgepri #2: local team
@Ganneffedi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. i trust both to make a good conf.
* h01ger also thinks 1,2,4 and 8 are the important (different) ones
+moraymarga appeared to want to say something here; I don't think it's useful for us teams to comment?
+SledgeGanneff: thanks, about what I'd have said
+Sledgemarga: please dive in if you have something
+moraySledge: can I correct that we've intentionally only listed people who were already involved, there are a lot more people in the UK who've expressed interest in helping *if* DebConf happens here
+Sledgemoray: noted
+moray(including edlug, compsoc people as mentioned on the wiki)
+vedran_sjjSledge: also applies for SJJ
+ajif both teams could keep some room at the conference for non-organisers, that would be great :)
* h01ger wonders if the localteams should be involved so much in weighting the prios..
+bdalemy opinion is that both teams have critical mass already
+Sledgeany further comments on pri2?
* Sledge waits 30 secs
+margaSorry, was away one moment, I have a comment.
+Sledgemarga: go
+margaIt's my understanding that it's a question of "National Pride" for SJJ people to hold a DebConf.  However, I do fear that they might not be ready for hosting DebConf yet.  
+Sledge30 secs
+margaMainly because only Safir has been present in a previous DebConf, and DebConf is not like any other conference.
* h01ger nods
+Sledgepri3: good working spaces
+Sledgeas far as I can see, both bids should have this covered
+Sledgeif you disagree, please respond ASAP
+bdaleI think so too
+vedran_sjjSledge: 24/7, special rooms
@Ganneffboth are covered here
@Ganneffhotel has enough room, edi also.
+vedran_sjjSledge: same building
+MaulkinThat's a different point
+Sledgemoving on
+Sledgepri4: excellant network connectivity
@h01gervedran_sjj..., u didnt say anything new/interesting now... (really) (at 3)
+vedran_sjjh01ger: am I allowed to point out our strengths?
@Ganneffpri4 - edi may have more uplink, but sjj would give us also enough for debconf IMO
+Sledgeboth have offers of networking from local ISPs that should be enough for us; EDI may have an advantage in terms of absolute bw
+Maulkinvedran_sjj: Please just state if you disagree with the summaries
@h01gervedran_sjj, i thought the orga team weights the priorities - you had your time allready..
+Sledgeany disagreement?
+Sledge30 secs
+aji believe the edi venue also has wired networking already hooked up, whereas the sjj team may have to do that themselves
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: I disagree with summary of pri3
* h01ger is not sure about aruba and other hw sponsors but the SJJ offerings are not that bad
@h01ger(because esp. aruba-sponsorship relies on local dealers..)
@Ganneffaj: no already setup wired did suffice up tonow
@Ganneffaj:  i think we need to run cables in both locations for some parts
+Sledgevedran_sjj: what's the problem with (3)?
+Maulkinvedran_sjj: Do you feel sjj is stronger in terms of the actual working spaces? (not rooms etc)
+margavedran_sjj: pri 3 refers to hacklabs / talk rooms. Not allocation.
+morayGanneff: yeah, in ECA we might want to add some, and in either venue would certainly need to split out for individual machines etc.
+vedran_sjjSledge: we have confirmed 24/7 and availability of server and video rooms
@h01gerGanneff, which might be harder in a hotel (but wasnt a problem in brasil)
+Maulkinvedran_sjj: So does Edinburgh
@Ganneffh01ger: not according to the hotel, we asked that. should be doable.
@h01gerGanneff, ok
+vedran_sjjwe also have more hacklabs available
+margavedran_sjj: more? How many rooms for how many people?
@Ganneffi wouldnt count numbers there, as some locations in edi have lots of rooms.
+Sledgevedran_sjj: I think most people are happy with both bids on this front, we should move on
@Ganneffyes. next.
* h01ger nods to sledge
+vedran_sjjmarga: we have 6 rooms available, one large room up to 300 people and the other are smaller
+Sledgepeople happy with (4)?
+bdaleif sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out
+vedran_sjjbdale: I agree
+moraybdale: in either venue in Edinburgh rooms would be limited by what we rent rather than space
+moray(as Ganneff said)
* Maulkin moves for closure on (3) and (4)
+Sledge30 secs on (4), then move on
+bdalemy opinion is that both teams have adequate answers for 3 and 4 to ensure a good conf
+Sledgequality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
+morayis this about sponsored catering or outside stuff, or both?
+Sledgeboth, I think
@Gannefffor 5 - both sites can offer good food. the price may vary in EDI, depending on what is chosen.
+bdalemoray: I meant both
* h01ger nods to Ganneff
+Sledgeon site food seems to be good enough in both, though maybe more expensive in EDI
+ajexpensive goes back to point (1), no?
* Maulkin nods
+Sledgefor separate food, EDI may have a slight advantage due to being right in the city centre; again, both are adequate
@Ganneffwhere i only vote against using the mosque kitchen for the whole thing, but except that i guess both sides will feed us good enough. maybe edi more expensive, depends on what they can talk out of the guys there.
+bdalefor perspective, I think dc2 and dc3 were barely adequate in this regard, dc4 had great in-house meals but going off site was a challenge.  dc5 was so-so on food all told, and dc6 was stunningly good because there were many options available within easy walk at good prices
+Sledgeany arguments on (5)? 30 secs
+Maulkinbdale: Thus, do you have a preferred venue for this?
+bdaleMaulkin: I've been to EDI, I've never been to SJJ, I find it hard to differentiate well based on what has been asserted in the proposals
+MaulkinOr any objections to "They're both equal"? :)
+bdaleI'd abstain
+Sledgeok, moving on to (6): suitabile housing in close proximity
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: sjj is much cheaper
+morayMaulkin: well, I'd mildly object on that, but I agree no one will starve in either
+Maulkin.oO(This is feeling like a SPI meeting)Oo.
+Maulkinvedran_sjj: That was section (1), it's been noted
* bdale whacks Maulkin
+SledgeMaulkin: *grin*
@h01gervedran_sjj, thats is point1. atm you're only weakening point2
@h01gerwhat does "suitabile housing in close proximity" mean?
+Sledgehousing: sjj has an advantage with accommodation on the same site; EDI is more spread out (but not a *huge* amount)
+Maulkinh01ger: yes
+margaSJJ has an advantage over EDI at prio. 6, since it's a four star hotel, and everything is close together.  EDI's proposal is still acceptable and "DebConf level".
* Sledge nods marga
* h01ger nods to marga
* bdale agrees
@Ganneffaccomodation is in SJJ all in one, EDI is spread in the city. and has of course a lot of hotels also there.
@Ganneffplus for sjj imo.
@h01geranybody taking notes on this pro/con things?
+Sledgeno arguments? moving on in 30s
* Maulkin is taking minutes.
+ajone advantage to EDI on that score is people can opt to go to a 5-star hotel if they're willing to pay
+ajthe SJJ bid gets everyone into the 4-star hotel instead
+bdaleaj: I'm presuming you could also do that in SJJ, though?  cheap taxis, too.
+ajah, good point
+Sledge(7): presentation facilities
+ajthis is what happens when you walk everywhere...
@Gannefffor 7 - SJJ has the technic of the hotel included for free. sjj has the lecture halls in ECA and big rooms in teviot.
+bdaletraveling on an expense account is definitely a different experience...
* Sledge nods Ganneff
+bdales/sjj/EDI/, right?
@Ganneffsjj has a big room for main talks, with stuff for beamer and sound, and various smaller rooms for other things.
@Ganneffedi has the lecture halls or big room, and also various smaller rooms. dont know technic in lecture halls in EDI.
+margaSo, it's even?
+Sledgesounds like
+bdaleboth sound adequate
+morayGanneff: Maulkin and sladen_uk have worked in audiovisual stuff (and kevc_uk does sound stuff), so we have lots of contacts for getting lent/sponsored equipment, besides what's in the venues
+moray(so yes, I'd agree both are adequate)
* h01ger nods to moray
+Sledgeok, so even there by all accounts
+Sledgemoving on in 30s
@Ganneff(that even is why i mentioned skip)
+Sledge(8) travel logistics
@Ganneffplus for EDI, way more airlines there.
+Sledgethis point is a major plus towards EDI
@h01gervisas also
* marga nods.
+bdaleboth require 3 airline flights for me.  there seem to be more connection options to EDI, and EDI seems to be cheaper though not by a lot.
+Sledgeany argument? moving on in 30s
+bdaleI don't appear to need a visa for either.
+ajthe one world alliance airlines don't seem to travel to sarajevo, though i need to talk to my travel agent again
@h01gerbdale, you us-american :)
+margabdale: it's been shown that from the list of DC6 attendees more people would need a visa to go to SJJ than to go to EDI.
+moraySledge: we may have trouble if a *lot* of Europeans take budget flights to a DebConf in Edinburgh :p
+Sledgemoray: worry about that as/when
@h01germoray, same is true for SJJ... (probably even more)
@Ganneffi think both airports are well connected for the number of people
+Sledgemoving on to (9) accessibility
+bdalemarga: I understand that.  I just took the time to research what it would take me to get there, so thought I'd comment.  I mentioned here before the meeting that neither country is on the list of places I'm supposed to avoid on behalf of my employer, which is good news.
@Ganneff9 is even for both. SJJ has a slight advantage in the hotel, EDI out in the streets with the need for all taxis to have weelchair access. SJJ seems to have a bus for weelchairs for us to use whenever we want. in EDI disabled people most probably need to go to a hotel, not our hostels. (ie together with sponsors that dont take hostels).
+Maulkin22:40 <@Jon_uk> (8) summary?
+SledgeMaulkin: ah, true
* marga nods to Ganneff
@h01gerGanneff, the both airports point is not true
@h01gerwhile i nod to the accessability point of Ganneff :)
@Ganneffh01ger: the capacity for the number of people is ok at both locations.
+Sledge(8) summary: cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
@Ganneffh01ger: we have a laughable amnount of people going there.
@h01gerGanneff, the capacity yes.
+Sledgeare we agreed on accessibility?
+morayGanneff: it sounds like you're implying people would need to take taxis: in Edinburgh the ordinary buses are generally wheelchair accessible too; also because we're in the centre probably no attendees would *need* to take a bus even if they want to see the city
@Ganneffmoray: no. just mentioning the fact.
+MaulkinSledge: I'd rate them ==
@Ganneffaccessibility is equal
@h01gerso both are equal on that
+Sledgeok, agreed
+SledgeI hope somebody out there is counting these answers
+MaulkinCrap. ok.
+margaThe main problem is not counting but weighing.
+Sledgeare the 2 teams happy overall with the responses here?
+ajokay, so clear draw on (5)-catering; (7), and (9)
+vedran_sjjSledge: sjj is fine
@h01gerSledge, i think cheaper is not the point in 8 (as its 1). but more flights (budgets and less changes) and less visa trouble certainly is.
+SledgeEDI: happy with the summaries?
+Sledgeh01ger: good point, yes
+ajdifferent advantages both ways, but no clear winner on (1), and (9)
+margaaj: I think 9 was declared equal.  1 is actually like 1a and 1b.
@h01geraj, wasnt 9 equal
+aji mean edi-is-better-due-to-X, sjj-is-better-due-to-Y, but it evens out
* Maulkin is summarising atm
+margaSo, how do we weigh / decide ?
@h01geri really cannot follow it :-) (to late) - /me suggest to wait for Maulkins summary..
@h01gertoo late even!
+Maulkin1   cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
+Maulkin2   edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already.
+Maulkin3   equal
+Maulkin4   both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth
+Maulkin5   both can offer good food
+Maulkin6   sjj has advantage
+Maulkin7   equal
+Maulkin8   cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
+Maulkin9   equal
+MaulkinI think
* h01ger likes to bring back in memory that we priorized them in order of importance
* Maulkin nods
+MaulkinI can do some evil scoring thing if you want.
+margaMaulkin: it depends.
+Maulkinie: partial advantage = 0.5, full advantage = 1.
+MaulkinTimes by 10-priority number
+MaulkinOr someone else do it :)
+Sledgehow do the orga team wish to do this?
@h01gerMaulkin, go, Maulkin!
+MaulkinOr it's a stupid idea.
+MaulkinI dunno! :)
+margaI don't know, I don't like scoring, particularly because we didn't really debate the priorities.
* h01ger thinks this is ok-ish - we could also just weight
+vedran_sjj<bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out
+MaulkinOr we can just do:
+Maulkin22:50 <@Igloo> kevc_uk: The local team who dress up in the silliest outfits win?
+bdaledrop the equals, weigh the rest
+margaSo, the points that matter are:
+marga1 - cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI
+marga2 - edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already.
* sapphire_sjj puts on the silly hat :)
+marga6 - sjj has advantage
* h01ger nods. but i really think 2 is not correctly summarized. we had a big local team in .mx too.
+marga8 - cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people
@Ganneffh01ger: no, we had not.
@h01ger(nodding to bdale that was)
@Ganneffh01ger: it was said to be there. but wasnt.
@h01gerGanneff, no. not in .mx. but before.
@Ganneffh01ger: here we know its there.
* h01ger wont start a wdiscussion about single points now
@h01ger(not more as i already did, sorry for that)
+MaulkinQuick issue: are we doing this by scoring, or consensus?
+Sledgeconsensus would be better, if possible
* h01ger nods
@h01gerconsensus of whom though :)
+MaulkinCan we try that first?
@h01ger(tahts always the question)
+aji'm not convinced that "more people" balances out the involvement in debian that the uk group have already had; mooch and marga had some specific concerns on that earlier, in particular
+MaulkinGeneral comments/concerns on my summary above please :)
+MaulkinAre we taking general comments, or just orga?
+margaYes, point 2 should be rephrased.
+morayMaulkin: comments from whom?  I still think Edinburgh has a definite advantage on 5(b) food outside the venue, since that's a lot of the reason I pressed for it to be *in* the city...
+vedran_sjjmoray: thats debatable
+marga2 - EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences.
+MaulkinSo != ?
+moraymarga: UK people have also been involved in organising big non-Debian conferences, in case you're implying otherwise
+margamoray: I was not.
+Maulkin22:55 <@Hydroxide> a bit of input suitable for replaying: items 1 seems to mostly be a washout; 6 and 8 balance out; in item 2, I think that the involvement in debian is an especially important advantage for edi since this is, after all, a DebConf, not a Free Software Conf.
@h01germoray, i think "food outside the venue" is nice (and surely closer in EDI) but i dont think its really much relevant for debconf
+morayh01ger: ok, bdale said that was part of what he meant by that criterion
@h01gerMaulkin, could you please repost the rephrased complete list? /me is tired of scrolling.. :)
+MaulkinJust a sec...
+ajwe're calling (1), (6)+(8), (7) and (9) balanced for both groups, no?
+MaulkinHow's this:
+Maulkin1   cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI. Equal
+Maulkin2   EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences. Edi strong advantage
+Maulkin3   equal
+Maulkin4   both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth. - equal
+Maulkin5   both can offer good food - euqal
+Maulkin6   sjj stong advantage
+Maulkin7   equal
+Maulkin8   cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people - edi
+Maulkinslight advantage
+Maulkin9   equal
+bdaleh01ger: it really depends.  if you like and/or are satisfied by the group meals, that can work fine.  dc4 was like that for me, for example.  if you're not, then what's available nearby is very important.  in the case of dc6 it was particularly nice to be able to "wander off" in a small group to experience some local food and culture without having to make a big deal about it
+MaulkinPlease object to this if you think it's wrong :)
+MaulkinI'd like to hear from sjj and edi here...
+MaulkinAs to the above summary
+aj(3), i thought there was a slight advantage to sjj; but i haven't studied either venue in enough detail to say
+vedran_sjjwhy is 2 strong advantage for Edi?
+morayMaulkin: the 'strong' in 6 seems to be new
* h01ger thinks 5 is less important as 2+4 are in favor of EDI and 1+3 are equal.
+aj(5)-remote food was a slight advantage to edi, i thought too
* h01ger wonders if he maybe thats why _he_ doesnt care that much about 5?
+vedran_sjjaj: as I said before (and you silenced me), food outside venue is much cheaper in sjj
+morayaj: obviously I'm partisan, but I didn't feel the working spaces in SJJ were better than what we're proposing - they probably had more carpet, but they seemed more awkward spaces IMO
+ajoh, sorry, i should've reminded you to repeat that after moray had finished; doh
@h01gervedran_sjj, how close is that? walking distance?
+vedran_sjjh01ger: yes, 5 minutes walk
+margavedran_sjj: because, as it was stated before, it is important for the local team to have been involved in previous DebConfs.  stockholm had actually said that it was a "requirement" for one of the local-team to have been an organizer of the previous year DebConf.  SJJ has only Safir participating in DC5 as a volunteer, not as an organizer.  While EDI has a big group of people who have been attendants/volunteers, and Maulkin was an organizer for DC6.
@h01gerand moray hangs out here since idunno
+Maulkin1   equal
+Maulkin2   EDI strong
+Maulkin3   SJJ slight
+Maulkin4   equal
+Maulkin5   equal
+Maulkin6   SJJ stong
+Maulkin7   equal
+Maulkin8   EDI slight
+Maulkin9   equal
+MaulkinWhich leaves:
+Maulkin2   EDI strong
+Maulkin3   SJJ slight
+Maulkin6   SJJ strong
+Maulkin8   EDI slight
+aj(4) and (5) i'd say EDI slight; (8) i'd say EDI "clear"
* h01ger supports aj
+ajstrong, but not to say it's more important than the previous priorities
@h01gerits prio 8 :)
+margaActually, I thought that we had evened-out 3 and 4.  If 3 is SJJ slight (nobody except vedran_sjj knows why), then 4 is EDI slight.
+Maulkinaj: ok, strong
+sapphire_sjjmarga Safir has been in orga team for DC6
+MaulkinIt'll be done with priorites anyway
+Maulkinobjections to 4 and 5 edi weak?
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: yes objection to 5
+ajyes, likewise
+moraymaulkin: 'edi weak' sounds like you mean 'edinburgh is weak'
+ajoh wait
+MaulkinSorry, s/weak/slight/
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: 4. Edi has no connectivity in hotel rooms
+bdaleI commented on that in my email to -team
* h01ger just noticed that he knows three people wondering what sapphire_sjj did for dc6 - i'm sorry to say this... but
+Maulkinvedran_sjj: I think that was seen as a advantage as well as a disadvantage
@Ganneffh01ger: work before debconf on some parts
+bdaleI'm not sure that connectivity in housing is actually a benefit.
+MaulkinCan we please agree that (3) and (4) cancel each other out?
+morayMaulkin: well, I think Edinburgh's better on both...
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: yes it was seen as a way to force people to go to venue, which in sjj is unneccesarry since hotel is the venue
@h01gerMaulkin, no, i dont agree
@Ganneffthis doesnt get us anywhere...
* h01ger nods Ganneff
@h01ger5min break?
* marga sighs and nods.
+sapphire_sjjh01ger, I did gather information, contacted sponsors and worked on the website
@h01gersapphire_sjj, ok.
+bdalevedran_sjj: your point is well taken, but camping out in one's room and being in a public room with others is clearly not socially equivalent
+Maulkin(1) is equal, agreed?
+bdalevedran_sjj: I'm not saying it's a problem to have connectivity in the housing, just that it's not a clear advantage
* Maulkin waits...
+Maulkin(7) is equal, agreed?
+Maulkin30 secs
+Maulkin(9) is equal, agreed?
+Maulkin(30 secs)
+Maulkinok, thanks
+MaulkinRight, now the hard bit :)
+Maulkin2: edi strong.
+Maulkin(see above for reasoning)
+SledgeMaulkin: yup
+MaulkinOk, we'll come back to 2.
+Maulkin3   SJJ slight
+morayMaulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet
+margaI don't see the reasoning, but I don't think it's worth the bother discussing it.
+Maulkinmoray: Is that a disgree?
+vedran_sjjmoray: 24/7 availability
+vedran_sjjmoray: video and server rooms
* Maulkin marks 3 as contested
+ajvedran_sjj: moray's noted several times they've confirmed 24/7 availability for edi
+Maulkin4   EDI slight
@h01germe not really neither. but if we if give EDI the benifit of the doubt in "2 EDI strong"..., SJJ has 3 slightly
+vedran_sjjaj: confirmed? thats new
+ajvedran_sjj: since last week, yes
+vedran_sjjaj: video and server rooms remain
+margayes for 4 EDI slight.
@h01gerso me takes back what he said before
* Maulkin hands back to Sledge
+MaulkinOr not.
+MaulkinNo objections to 4.
+Maulkin5   EDI slight
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: 5 no!
+vedran_sjjMaulkin: based on what?
+morayvedran_sjj: (no, we have these too, as also said earlier)
+MaulkinJust state if you have objections please
+MaulkinOk. That's on objection
+Maulkin6   SJJ strong
+sapphire_sjjMaulking, 5 object
@h01gerMaulkin, so 3 was equal? (as i just read on -dicuss that EDI has 24/7 for server/video as well)
+MaulkinSledge: noted
+Maulkinh01ger: It's been contested.
* Maulkin sees no objections to 6
+Maulkin8   EDI strong
+ajsorry, yes to both 6 and 8
+morayMaulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6
+ajas in agree, not yes to objections :)
@h01gerMaulkin, ? dont know the word "contested"... what is the 3 now? well, i'll wait for the full list
+ajmoray: hostels versus a hotel seems an advantage to sjj to me
+margayes to 8.
+Maulkinmoray: Ok, noted.
@h01geraj, 6 is SJJ strong?!
@Ganneffh01ger: yes.
+MaulkinIt's been noted for 6 is in dispute
+Maulkin8 please.
+morayaj: ok, I didn't know the point was qualitative rather than 'is there some accomm. appropriately'
+MaulkinEdi strong.
+MaulkinI see no objections
+Sledge8 is agreed
+margah01ger: having a 4 star hotel that accommodates everyone, instead of two separate hostels sounds like better accomodation to me.
+Maulkin(sorry, I'm getting annoyed and want to go to bed)
+MaulkinRight, we have 4 contested items. 2,4,5 and 6
+sapphire_sjj6 is agreed as well
+ajis (2) contested except by members of the teams it's referring to?
@h01gerMaulkin, the contestions from SJJ on 5 have been "revoked" by EDI
@Ganneffcan we do the rest without *both* local teams? (sorry). they only contest the other side then imo.
+Maulkin2: Edi strong, objection received from vedran_sjj and sapphire_sjj
* h01ger nods Ganneff
+morayGanneff: I'm happy to keep quiet
+morayGanneff: just didn't want to do so while my input was expected
+Sledgemoray: thanks
+Maulkinsapphire_sjj: Are you ok with that?
+vedran_sjjGanneff: I'll be quiet too
@Ganneffok, so both local teams quiet. :)
+Maulkin2   EDI strong
* h01ger wonders what the status of 3 is?
+sapphire_sjjMaulkin, ok
+Maulkin(30 secs)
+bdaleitem 2 is clearly a question of how the decision-making group feels more than something that can be measured in absolute terms
@Ganneffi would rate 2 as slight.
+margaI would rate it as strong
* h01ger would rate it as stronger than slight at least
+margaShould we go with semi-strong? slightly-strong?
* h01ger nods marga
+MaulkinOk... semi strong
+ajstrong with noted preferences to slight from ganneff?
* Sledge strangles aj
+Maulkin3   SJJ slight
+ajsorry, i typed slow :)
@Ganneffand to note it: thats from the meeting with them.
@Gannefffrom the impression i got.
+Maulkinnoted objections from moray
+ajGanneff: them = both teams, yes?
+margaGanneff: you've been to both places, would you agree that work areas are the same?
@Ganneffaj: nah. i can rate SJJ higher than i would without meeting them. ie i lower the advantage of beeing involved in debian a bit.
* h01ger wonders what Maulkin noted from moray.
@Ganneffaj: but keeping a slight advantage for edi
+Sledgeright. Maulkin: next point please
+Maulkin23:13 <+moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet
+ajthe argument for SJJ slight was that the venue was 24/7 and had video/server rooms 24/7; but since last meeting the edi team seem to have confirmed both those are available in EDI too
@Gannefffor the work areas - similar space. hotel has some more comfort, but space is ok both sides.
+MaulkinOk... is that now equal, or what?
* h01ger thinks so
* marga nods.
+Maulkinno objections received
+Maulkin5   EDI slight  *
+Maulkinobjections from SJJ
+margaI'd say... EDI very slight.
@Ganneffedi has more pubs/restaurants *neaer* sjj has something near, but due to edi beeing in the city center there are naturally more.
+margaBut they can both provide what we would need.
+ajaiui they have 24/7 food available, and alternative food available locally; but EDI has morechoices available locally for longer hours
+bdalecheap taxis in SJJ might mitigate that, but within walking distance is a powerful differentiator
+MaulkinSo is slight "right"?
+bdalefrom what I know, EDI slight seems right
+Sledgelooks like
+Maulkin6   SJJ strong
+MaulkinObjectiosn from a few people
* h01ger nods
@Ganneffthe hotel is an advantage here.
+Maulkin23:17 <@h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?!
+Maulkin23:17 <+moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6
@Ganneffstrong due to the 4-star hotel
@Ganneffand everything in one place.
+MaulkinSo the proposal is slight, instead of strong.
* h01ger nods - must have mistyped that one
@Ganneffedi has hostels.
@Ganneffso strong is ok in this point imo.
+MaulkinOk... I'll leave it as strong, agreed?
+MaulkinLat point! :)
+aji think strong in the same way travel for edi is strong -- a hostel is acceptable, but a hotel is better, just as we could get to sjj, but it'll be more conveinent to get to edi
* Sledge nods aj
+SledgeMaulkin: go go go!
* h01ger ment 8 i think
+Maulkin8   EDI strong
+Maulkinbut not contested!
+Maulkin2   EDI strong(ish) *
+MaulkinIs that Ok with everyone?
@Ganneffwe had that. make the summary.
+MaulkinRight, the final (non ==) list is:
+Maulkin2   EDI strong(ish)
+Maulkin3   SJJ slight
+Maulkin4   EDI slight
+Maulkin5   EDI slight
+Maulkin6   SJJ strong
+Maulkin8   EDI strong
+ajhrm? i thought 3 became a draw?
* h01ger nods aj
+Maulkin(This is weighted, so don't add up stongs/weaks :P)
+Maulkin2   EDI strong(ish)
+Maulkin4   EDI slight
+Maulkin5   EDI slight
+Maulkin6   SJJ strong
+Maulkin8   EDI strong
+aj1,3,7,9 draw
+MaulkinThe rest dreaw
+MaulkinSomeone from orga make a motion please.
* Sledge nods
* h01ger waves
* Maulkin stabs
* bdale waits patiently
+margaI wonder what we are waiting for
@h01gerisnt it obvious?
@h01gerso, its edinburgh. now flame me to death.
+moraydid aj fall asleep again?
+MaulkinObjections form orga?
+aji wish
* h01ger has dinner atm
+vedran_sjjI'd like to use this intermission to congratulate Maulkin for excellent leading of this meeting
+sapphire_sjjno gwlof, no stockholm
+MaulkinIt's not over yet...
@Ganneffvedran_sjj: you know that most was done by sledge and maulkin, not Maulkin alone?
+MaulkinBut thank you vedran_sjj :)
+ajthanks also to both teams for sticking around and being very helpful (and being patient with my napping)
+MaulkinYes, Sledge++
+margavedran_sjj: likewis, I'd like to congratulate you on a great representation from Sarajevo.
+vedran_sjjthanks marga
+MaulkinThat was far too close.
+Sledgevedran_sjj and moray: thanks for clear bids and responses to questions tonight
+MaulkinCan we have two debconfs a year? ::)
* Sledge stabs Maulkin
* Sledge stabs Maulkin again, just in case the first wasn't enough
* h01ger also really says thanks+kudos to both teams, you're presentations and preparations have been real good
@Ganneffso. now -team has to sort out itself i think. but probably tomorrow...
+ajso shall we (a) schedule a time to discuss how we do this in future now this decision's out of the way and we don't have any active bids; and (b) can i talk to the sjj guys about stuff sometime too (in english :)?
@h01ger(damn, maybe i should have skipped that politician like "both teams" here. but i mean it.. and would have said it in any case)
* Sledge nods aj
@Ganneffaj: a.) no. that should be done at running debconf.
+morayaj: can someone post an 'official' decision
+Sledgeh01ger: do you really want to have the orga team discussion now?
@Ganneffaj: by kicking both teams into a room and loosing the key until they have one location only.
+vedran_sjjaj: b) sure! we'll be around
+SledgeMaulkin: thanks for doing the minuting and pri tallying, I'll take it back now if you want to run
+MaulkinSledge: Can you post a decision to debconf-annouce?
+ajGanneff: that's what needs to be discussed
@h01gerSledge, no. as much as i hate to postpone it again or rather to have yet another dc meeting soon... i dont think now would be any good
+margaGanneff: we might _try_ that on IRC, if we manage to be friendly enough.
+ajSledge: yes please do
+Sledgeh01ger: ok, cool
+bdaleit has been approximately 4 hours since this meeting started.  I strongly suggest everyone get food and sleep before trying to decide anything else of substance!
* marga now with her DC8-candidate hat.
+Sledgeok, I'll post an announcement tonight
+Maulkinoh yeah
@h01gerGanneff, no. not next debconf. i dont wanna continue now. remember Tolimar?
@h01ger(s mail)
@Ganneffh01ger: see my comment at 00:38:12
+Maulkin** minutes - see about 2000 lines of backlog and try and condense it. I'm going to have to do this in SPI if I run for secretary, aren't I?
@GanneffSledge: if you want debconf-announce you need me.
+ajMaulkin: yes
* h01ger greps
+ajmeeting over, demoderate?
+SledgeGanneff: ok, cool - let's organise that later
* Sledge nods aj
* Maulkin nods
+Sledgemeeting closed

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